Challenge Supreme Court (Questions Answered Here!)

I thought we determined no swing axles (corvair, c2/c3, bug) because the axle itself is a suspension location member and if it breaks stuff moves and the car can dart to the side.  It was determined that a car like my datsun has strut effectively replacing the upper control arm and that's cool as long as u-joints have safety loops like a driveshaft would at certain et's or with slicks.  I can say with certainty that i passed tech at an nhra flagship track this summer in full challenge dress and they even tech inspected my helmet and fire jacket.  

We've made an exception for slower cars running stock flywheels. Slower than 11.49 ET and you're good to go. 

What exactly is the swing-axle question everybody is asking?

The formatting for the challenge budget sheet tries to print all of the formatted section onto one page.  This may confuse some of the less able excel/open office users. 

and they kept calling it Cast Iron, not Steel, cast Iron flywheels went out 50 years ago.  It appears the axle question is, does an Independent rear have to be double A arms Or Strut, or can an older styly Aka. Corvair where axle is a stressed member O.K.

In reply to GTXVette :

I don't think that is correct. Pretty sure most OEM flywheels are cast iron. 

Anyone more knowledgeable then me?

I have spent 30 min. trying to copy the Wiki Link to FlyWheel Materials. it explains why cast Iron isn't the Best Choice for a Flywheel in Modern engines.

In reply to GTXVette :

"Isn't the best choice"?

I interpret that to mean, "There are better choices for performance". That doesn't tell me anything about OEM configurations. 

OK, The Product, Cast Iron doesn't tolerate centrifical Forces associated with the spinning of a Flywheel,  but in a Low RPM where a very Heavy Material is used Aka single cyl. or even two cyl. to  keep opposing forces flowing in an angular direction a Heavy Cast Iron is and can be used.   the metal ratings are in a Brunnell Hardness rating, Of which cast iron is about an 8. steel is lighter and rated from 200 to 600 hardness.

Steel of varying strength's and weights are employed in engines of different number of cylinders and the rpm they can turn or Tolerate.   You do not want Cast Iron spinning at 7000 rpm beside you. An SFI approved flywheel is a better quality steel made to Closer Tolerances. An Aluminum wheel is used in a car that has a Higher than stock RPM Range or doesn't need the Spinning force of a steel wheel to make the torque needed to move the car.  Auto Mfg.'s do know this, and use the Material nessesary. but not  Cast Iron.

“If the axle locates the wheel/hub, the car is not legal unless the drivetrain is stock and not running drag slicks.”

Does that work? I don’t think this is a universe of more than a few models that are likely to show up at the Challenge. 

This is verbatim from nhra ruke book

 Cars running 10.99 or quicker that weigh more than 2000 lbs with independent rear suspension without upper and lower (both) control arms must replace swing axle differential with conventional differential housing assembly. Cars with independent rear suspension using upper and lower (both)control arms may retain swing axle assembly regardless of weight or ET. Must have 360 degree, minimum 1-inch wide by 1/4-inch thick axle retention loop on each axle.

it's basically stating 10.99 is cutoff for cars that use the axle as a suspension member.  I doubt this would come up at the challenge.  Earlier in the year i was seeking clarity because i believe my IRS car is capable of quicker times, but i have a non swing axle IRS, with the 1/4" retention loops on the axles.  I'm not concerned about me, my car is built to the rule book and has passed tech at nhra flagship type tracks, but someone else brought it up.  

I'm guessing nobody is bringing a 10.99 or faster rear engine bug, c2/c3 corvette, corvair, etc that have swing axle diffs.

Ok... I'm starting to panic that our challenge car isn't going to reach a state that will allow it to compete (or even leave the garage).  So, how does this "If your Challenge car fails to make the event due to technical, logistical or metaphysical issues, we may allow teams to run an alternate vehicle for exhibition." thing work?

I understand that you can't just buy parts and flip them to pad the budget.  But how would you account for this:

-Initial car purchase came with two spare wheels.  As a pair of wheels they're worth little, maybe 50 bucks.
-So I found some other idiot with only two wheels and bought them for $50.
-Repainted all four with paint already in the budget.
-Sold set of four for $200.

Can I recoup....150?  That's what actually happened.  Or should I only recoup $100 because the wheels that came with the challenge car represented half the $200 sale?  Or only $50 because I just demonstrated that two wheels by themselves are only worth that?

In reply to RedGT :

I would think you could recoup the $150 as long as you hadn't hit the limit for either the overall build or the car that the spare wheels came with. You obviously couldn't have gotten 2 pairs of wheels for $50 each and then sold them as a set of 4 for $200- you'd only be able to recoup $100 (or just leave them out entirely). But in this case, the first 2 wheels are counted as part of the initial car purchase itself so as long as the car itself didn't cost less than $150 or you hadn't already sold off enough that you've zeroed out the car, you could recoup the $150.

Unfortunately I think $100.  The $50 wheels you bought were never part of challenge build so they are not part of your budget.  You sold 2 from original car purchase so 200÷2=100 recoup.

Ovid_and_Flem said:

Unfortunately I think $100.  The $50 wheels you bought were never part of challenge build so they are not part of your budget.  You sold 2 from original car purchase so 200÷2=100 recoup.

I agree with this math. 

Fair enough.  Thanks.  (The $100 version)

Andy Neuman said:

The formatting for the challenge budget sheet tries to print all of the formatted section onto one page.  This may confuse some of the less able excel/open office users. 

where do I find this budget sheet?

In reply to RedGT :

There's another way to do it...

You can recoup $200, but you'd have to add the purchase of the 2nd pair of $50 wheels to your budget. 

I wouldn't call that "paddingvthe budget". I'd call that "putting in some extra effort to maximize your recoup". 

In reply to SVreX :

I think that interpretaton could open up can of worms that could be manipulated and defeats spirit of the event.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

Well, we disagree. Don't forget- it's about the story (the editorial content). 

I bought a non-running Lotus with a bad engine.  I intended to Challenge it.  I pulled the engine, cleaned it up, and it looked great- had the word "Lotus" cast prominently into the block. 

My plan was to get a glass table top made with the Lotus emblem etched into it, and make an awesome Lotus coffee table out if the block. I'm confident I could sell a table like this for over $2K. 

That was my recoup plan.  Good story, huh?

Why is that different?

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

BTW, recoup rule was CREATED to enable budget loopholes and limit them. It was a response to the winning team in 2003 who recouped vast amounts in their budget (before recoup rule existed). 

I don't see any violation of the spirit of the event. It's Challenge math, and yes some people could interpret it as not right. That's kinda the point. The recoup rule recognizes that grey areas DO exist, and limits them equally for everyone. 

I could have sworn there was some sort of info sheet we were supposed to fill out, in addition to the budget worksheet.  I can't find it on the Challenge page, though.  Does someone have a link to it, or am I just imagining things?

I think the middle of the road approach works for my specific example.  "I bought some other parts to help realize the full value of what I sold off the car" is reasonable.  "I bought some other parts to inflate the value of what i sold off the car" is pushing it. 

I was trying to sell half of a $200 set of wheels and was faced with only getting $50 for them.  By buying and including in the deal the other two wheels, I did indeed get '$100' - reasonable market value - for the two that came with the challenge car. So that seems a fair amount to include in the budget.  The fact that my wallet profited $150 is neither here nor there, the fair market value of those original two wheels was reasonably $100 but definitely not $150 unless being sold by a high end spec miata shop.

Patrick said:

This is verbatim from nhra ruke book

 Cars running 10.99 or quicker that weigh more than 2000 lbs with independent rear suspension without upper and lower (both) control arms must replace swing axle differential with conventional differential housing assembly. Cars with independent rear suspension using upper and lower (both)control arms may retain swing axle assembly regardless of weight or ET. Must have 360 degree, minimum 1-inch wide by 1/4-inch thick axle retention loop on each axle.

it's basically stating 10.99 is cutoff for cars that use the axle as a suspension member.  I doubt this would come up at the challenge.  Earlier in the year i was seeking clarity because i believe my IRS car is capable of quicker times, but i have a non swing axle IRS, with the 1/4" retention loops on the axles.  I'm not concerned about me, my car is built to the rule book and has passed tech at nhra flagship type tracks, but someone else brought it up.  

I'm guessing nobody is bringing a 10.99 or faster rear engine bug, c2/c3 corvette, corvair, etc that have swing axle diffs.

Okay, I figured I was missing something about slower cars. I'm not going to worry about addressing/improving the NHRA's rules here.