In 1984, the battle began. It was the inaugural season of the original DTM, the Teutonic touring car series formally known as Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft. Wheels started turning rapidly in German automaker think tanks to produce the perfect entry. This would be a war of brains and mechanical…
I've owned two and you can buy a real cream puff for $8500-9500. It's a small car bargain in my opinion.
And parts are readily available at autobone?
Trackmouse wrote: And parts are readily available at autobone?
No, but easily ordered from a specialty house, benz dealer or rock auto much like other cars of this era and provenance.
chandlerGTi wrote: I've owned two and you can buy a real cream puff for $8500-9500. It's a small car bargain in my opinion.
Now I'm starting to wonder if I used to know you from somewhere else.
It shares a major amount of parts with the other 190s. I rebuilt the entire rear suspension using standard 190 arms and bushings. Rear self leveling shocks are proprietary- but there "normal" aftermarket shocks/springs available.
And was the source of great amusement on a Top Gear episode as everyone was caught out by the dogleg gearbox.
I heard Martin brundle said this was the finest rwd chassis ever.
Put 430,000 miles on my '86 190E 2.3-16 manual over a sixteen year period with only timing chains, and clutch replacement. And a dozen clutch slave hydraulic cylinders. I would just carry an extra and change them roadside.
The real question to collectors- "Why is the e30 BMW M3 bringing 2X original sticker price, while the sixteen valve MB brings less than a quarter of its list price?" There are far fewer of the Benz's and they dominated DTM in their day.
I really want to love these, but the one I drove had a TERRIBLE gear box. It was so bad I was laughing. Maybe it just needed a refresh, I dunno. Not that E30s have the best gearbox either. MB doesn't make manuals for a reason was my takeaway.
The whole car felt like a far cry from the E30 M3 I drove, but again, it could have been a particularly ratty example. I love the looks of the 190E, though. Maybe I need to give one another try.
Edit: Sounds like the sloppy gearbox is common, and can be helped, maybe.
Ed Higginbotham said:Unfortunately, rain was about to fall on the Mercedes-Benz parade. After an extremely impressive first year in DTM, BMW rolled out their own giant-killer, the much-heralded M3. BMW swiftly proved their product to be the greater German sports sedan.
I don't know if I'd go so far. As the DTM series went on, the arms race escalated with various Evolution models. The 2.5-16 Evo II won a ton of races against BMW. They generally did better at high-speed tracks (due to aero) and at the Nurburgring, where Mercedes had better reliability. And they were the overall champions in 1992.
Full disclosure: I race a 2.3-16 in vintage racing and with the BMW CCA. I'm probably biased.
FE3tMX5 said:It shares a major amount of parts with the other 190s.
And some of the "special" parts on the 16v compared to regular W201's (like brakes and wheel bearings) come from the W124 and R129 chasses.
KyAllroad said:And was the source of great amusement on a Top Gear episode as everyone was caught out by the dogleg gearbox.
That was a lot of schtick. For one thing, those guys are old enough that they've driven a million other cars with dogleg gearboxes. I know Jeremy used to personally own a Porsche 928 with a dogleg 1st. Besides, there's a lockout ... so you can't "accidentally" put it into reverse. You need to pull up on the lever and push it against a fairly stiff gate.
CyberEric said:I really want to love these, but the one I drove had a TERRIBLE gear box. It was so bad I was laughing. Maybe it just needed a refresh, I dunno. Not that E30s have the best gearbox either. MB doesn't make manuals for a reason was my takeaway.
Considering the original Euro M3s used the same Getrag 265 gearbox, I guess you'd expect them to feel pretty similar ;)
I've owned a few 2.3-16 models and plenty of E30/E36 BMWs. They all feel about the same as far as gearboxes and clutches go. Mercedes does have more bushings in the shifting mechanism, so it can get pretty sloppy if you have a ratty example. Cheap and easy to fix.
I had one. I would like to have another one. I don't have any complaint against the gearbox
While not ideal, are the automatic versions of these soul-sucking? While I'd prefer the manual autos seem to pop-up on CL for cheap...
Didn’t VW used to use a dogleg that required you to push down to get into R? I never saw it as a problem.
In reply to LanEvo :
Good to know. Yeah, I currently have an E30 and the gearbox is awful. At the time, I was working at an Acura/MB dealership doing car porting. Coming from the Acuras Integras probably made the 190 feel that much worse in comparison, and that particular 190 was probably pretty beat up. A refresh would have helped, but even then, I sort of doubt I would have loved the shifter feel.
Frankly, I lot of the older German cars feel a little "obtuse" to me after driving more modern sports cars. E30s, E34 M5, that 190, old 911s, etc. Maybe it's just me. It's funny because I sort of like it, in the same way I like dialing a radial phone or wearing a vintage blazer, but it feels a bit... unathletic. Still a cool car.
Does anyone have any experience with how the 2.3-16 compares with the 2.6 inline 6?
I read the US-spec 2.3-16 was "detuned" from the Euro version and only made a few hp more than the 2.6. I think the 6 would be obviously heavier, but torquier and smoother.
In reply to j_tso :
I actually remember liking the 2.6 I6, felt pretty torque-y and smooth. I'm pretty sure it only comes with the auto trans though. At least I don't ever remember seeing one with a manual in my days at the MB dealer.
j_tso said:Does anyone have any experience with how the 2.3-16 compares with the 2.6 inline 6?
I read the US-spec 2.3-16 was "detuned" from the Euro version and only made a few hp more than the 2.6. I think the 6 would be obviously heavier, but torquier and smoother.
Very different cars. The 16v feels much lighter over the front axles, the steering box has a quicker ratio, and (at least in stock form) the suspension is stiffer and the wheels/are wider. Overall, the front-end feels much more planted when changing directions. And, even though the US-spec engine is detuned compared to the Euro versions, it still LOVES to rev ... and sounds amazing doing it. Feels like a sportscar. The 2.6L is smooth, quiet, and torquey like a modern car. Not much excitement there.
CyberEric said:In reply to j_tso :
I actually remember liking the 2.6 I6, felt pretty torque-y and smooth. I'm pretty sure it only comes with the auto trans though. At least I don't ever remember seeing one with a manual in my days at the MB dealer.
5-speed manuals (regular H-pattern) are pretty easy to find in Europe. But they didn't sell many here in the USA (maybe none at all). Not sure it's worth the hassle of converting. The 2.6L works great as a daily driver with the auto box.
Old_Town said:While not ideal, are the automatic versions of these soul-sucking? While I'd prefer the manual autos seem to pop-up on CL for cheap...
I had one a few years ago. It's not too bad, but the auto doesn't like to hold onto gears unless you floor it. So it does kill some of the fun.
Then again, you can convert to manual without too much trouble. Lots of us 16v nerds have parts hoarded away: I've got a complete spare transmission, complete engine, an extra block, and two spare heads. Just last week there was a guy on the 190rev forums selling a complete conversion kit for a fair price. If you poke around abit and get active on the forums and FB group, you'll find what you need. I wouldn't bother swapping a regular W201, but it's worth it if you're starting with a 16v.
Always liked these cars, and have always looked long and hard at plenty of examples that pop up on CL. But they are just too small for me (or us I should say). Not sure how a rear facing babyseat + a fwd facing 4 in 1 would fit in the backseat, let alone with enough room for the driver without the driver looking like Joey Logano strapped in the cockpit. That and the wife would prob 'raise questions' if a 25+ yr old Benz came into the picture....reality sets in.
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