What does it take to go racing?

Ian F said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

In reply to Ian F :

Have you seen a price for the arrive and drive service?  Can't imagine it's cheap, but I do see the appeal.

I vaguely remember reading something like $2000/race plus damage and probably some consumables.  Sounds like a lot, but if you figure out the price of building a competitive car and the costs to transport it and maintain it, it's not as bad.  Even less if you factor in the personal time you aren't spending on the car.

That's actually somewhat reasonable, less than most that I've seen at least.

I could be way off. It's been years since I looked into it.

The first thing I would do is get ahold of Sonic. He knows LeMons and I would absolutely pay a premium (which I don't think he charges) for a seat in one of his cars. It's not so much about where you race as who you race with. The vintage crowd and the LeMons crowd and the stage rally crowd and the One Lap crowd all have their own vibe. Some people show up, feel like they don't belong, and think motorsports isn't for them. Some show up and it feels like home. 

If he doesn't have a competition license, he needs to get on that ladder pronto before health restrictions come into play. It's race school time. 

mazdeuce - Seth said:

The vintage crowd and the LeMons crowd and the stage rally crowd and the One Lap crowd all have their own vibe. Some people show up, feel like they don't belong, and think motorsports isn't for them. Some show up and it feels like home. 

I would absolutely love to read a post by you expanding on this, with your impressions and comparisons of each- I think you've seen more of the spectrum than most have.  

EDIT:  That feels too much like an order... what I'm getting at is it feels like something you'd write about, and pull it off well.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

There's no way to answer that without offending literally every group. 

Every race group I've been a part of feels like a family. Sometimes you're not part of that family, but it's there, that's why people love it and why they stay. To say something negative about any group is to offend that family and all the people in it. 

I will say that I like different things about different groups. I like the energy and youth in autocross near me. The old guys are grumpy and serious but the young guys are fun. They want to win and want to harass each other when they do. In One Lap it' s the opposite. I like chilling with the old guys. Telling stories, talking about family, spending a week around the campfire. They young guys can be a little intense and that's hard to deal with for a week straight. In rally I love the attitude that this is a bit dangerous, that driving into something may happen and if it does we will fight to the end to smash and strap things back together to finish. Driving fast enough to make survival questionable and then surviving. That same attitude in LeMons is what keeps me away. A road course with other people, amateur people who have families to go home to, is NOT the place to see what it's like to drive 103%. When done well endurance racing has a certain flow and mechanical pace that I enjoy, but when we're not all on the same page I get uncomfortable. Club racing has a seriousness that I appreciate. Proper prep. Proper cars. Showing up ready to win. The problem is when people don't realize that 10 minutes from not nobody outside these gates will care and pushing people past a certain emotional line really doesn't get you anything. I've not spent enough time around vintage racing to get a feel for it. I'm emotionally uncomfortable with the inherent irreplaceability of the cars. 

The point is to find a place where you're comfortable in your own skin. Where you drive through the gate and see someone you haven't seen in a year and their first instinct is to hug you and ask how the kids are. Where you can push yourself as far as you feel comfortable in a car you like and walk away having had fun doing that. We have different groups because we're different people. Different finances, different risk tolerance, different kinds of people we like to hang out with. 

Oh, and then there's the Challenge. Bunch a weirdos. 

Just another thing to consider here, most of the series he is considering are pretty safe, with roll cages and such.  He may want to take advantage of his imminent mortality and take up motorcycle racing or rallying.  

You can do a pretty Grassroots rally effort, and extend your season with things like rallycross and Pikes Peak.  Even head to Tijuana and race some SCORE events.  

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

i really like what you said. Puts a certain spin on it I don’t have. I’ve mostly raced Vintage with a little SCCA regional thrown in. 

With regard the nature of vintage racing. The care we take while racing at full throttle reflects that.  However in spite of real care accidents do happen and some really valuable old cars get damaged. However those with such cars have the means to take even rolled up balls of metal and turn them back into beautiful pieces of history. That or they can be sold( often at a profit)  to someone who can afford to restore them.

In reply to frenchyd :

I think a little more information regarding your friend and his racing experience might help generate responses. One of the things that immediately jumps out to me is his desire to run at the front of the pack. I assume he's close to your age and his level experience is somewhat critical. A true rookie in my opinion will not be able to step in a car and run competitively no matter what the level of car prep is. Give us a little background on his experience, age, Etc I would hate to recommend something that he really wouldn't enjoy if being a front-runner is critically important at this time.

What does he want to race?  FWD, RWD, open wheel, sedan, stock based, tube frame?  If he has limited experience and no comp license my first recommendation would be a good school in type of car he wants to drive.  Can be spec miata school ( $500-750/day) or like a friend of mine did a $32,000 ten race barber series then a $75,000 seat at Rolex 24 race in a mid  pack bmw. 3 for a 6 hour share

mazdeuce - Seth said:

The first thing I would do is get ahold of Sonic. He knows LeMons and I would absolutely pay a premium (which I don't think he charges) for a seat in one of his cars. It's not so much about where you race as who you race with. The vintage crowd and the LeMons crowd and the stage rally crowd and the One Lap crowd all have their own vibe. Some people show up, feel like they don't belong, and think motorsports isn't for them. Some show up and it feels like home. 

If he doesn't have a competition license, he needs to get on that ladder pronto before health restrictions come into play. It's race school time. 

His license is current and nothing would show on a racing medical 

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

I just finished talking to him.  His original thought was to buy my old Black Jack special and hire me to maintain it for him.  

Apparently the museum that has it has no interest in selling it so. He’s going to look for something with similar performance and character. Then re-approach me to see what I can do.  Considering all I have on my plate right now I don’t know. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Forgive me. What was the old Blackjack special?

In reply to frenchyd :

Amec,  Adirondack Motor Enthusiasts Club,Inc..  As the name says we are located mostly in the southern Adirondacks.   Our most used lake is 40 miles north of I-90 on a state highway.

You can drive your DD and sometimes there are cars available for rent.

www.iceace.com  all the info you need.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem : 

A Vintage race car  built by Jack Baker in 1958 based on a shortened Jaguar XK 150  used a fiberglass copy of a D type Jaguar owned by Don Skogmo , Well the nose and tail were from his D type the center section  was hand made aluminum.   

A year after construction it got the engine from Don Skogmo’s D type That’s when I got involved first as pit crew and later as a mechanic.  Later in about 1962 it was again re- poweredwith a small block Ford.  

 In 1974 I acquired it and restored it back to it’s as constructed 1958  condition. It was vintage raced by me from 1975- 2012  it raced with IMSA cars, Trans-Am, and one event with the Indy cars at Elkhart Lake.  All noon vintage events.  Plus countless races at Brainerd and Elkhart Lake.  In 1984 &86 it raced the Bahama Speed weeks where it finished 2 nd to world champion Sterling Moss driving the factory freshened and sponsored Aston Martin DBR 2 ( including one event where I won)  

it has raced at Monterey and with HMSA in San Diego  where it took first place in it’s class against some of the finest and most valuable cars in America.  ( that’s the picture next to my bio)  

frenchyd said:

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

With regard the nature of vintage racing. The care we take while racing at full throttle reflects that.  However in spite of real care accidents do happen and some really valuable old cars get damaged. However those with such cars have the means to take even rolled up balls of metal and turn them back into beautiful pieces of history. That or they can be sold( often at a profit)  to someone who can afford to restore them.

 

The one thing I try to remember when I see a banged up vintage racer is that the likelihood the car was 100% original when it took the green flag is next to nil.  Most saw a number of incidents when they were raced in anger and were rebuilt afterwards. In some cases a few times. 

In reply to Ian F :

You are absolutely correct. What people are buying in an old racer is the provenance. Not each original part.  Even Ferrari and Jaguar have been known to make more than one of a particular chassis number.  I’m sure they aren’t unique in that respect

In reply to frenchyd :

Wow!  I was going to Ask if the d-type Vintage racing picture was the car. Now I understand why it is in a museum.  Was it the no. 5 car?

Just glanced back at thread and I saw that your friend has a competition license. In thinking about your initial post about his declining health I can't help but surmise that his request perhaps was him reaching out to you not only as someone to maintain the car, but also seeking your companionship to share the experience. After all as an amateur Road racer myself for 20 or 25 years it really is about the relationships you forge and the overall experience rather than just the racing itself. Good luck in your search and hopefully you and your friend will have many more years chasing the Red Mist.

Obviously your friend has a stout budget if he was considering the Blackjack special. Given his apparent penchant for vintage but also seeking reliable why not consider a race prep Caterham 7? I've seen them near perfect trade hands 4 Less Than 25000.  One nice 8k mile example with full cage and 200+ hp ford zerec for $16k about 3 years ago.  I would assume that vintage sanctioning bodies allow them to run? Also could run NASA, SCCA, HPDE, ETC.

Doesn't sound like chumpcar or lemons would be his cup of tea.

I'm sorry about your friend but I admire his head on approach to dealing with his situation and I'm glad that he has the resources to deal with it in that way.

I think Ovid_and_Flem hit on something with his comment about seeking companionship.  If I'm reading between the lines correctly what he really wants is to spend at least a year knocking around the country with his buddy playing with cars.

If actually getting as much track time as possible is his goal then I suggest he take a close look at spec. Miata.  All of the reasons I recommend that have been documented have been documented ad nauseum on this site.  Reliability and the large number of places to race with large car counts are the two main ones I'm thinking of that here.  Those are also the reasons that a friend and I are building one despite the fact that we both already have faster race cars in our stables.  Racing in spec. Miata does tend to be aggressive however.  If he's not comfortable with fairly regular incidental contact then spec. Miata is probably not for him.

If he wants almost as much track time in a close field of vintage cars then Formula Ford (in particular Club Ford) might be a good choice.  The cars are a blast to drive, competition is close and the fields are generally fairly good sized and there are events all around the country year round.  They're not as low maintenance as a Miata but they're very simple cars and they're not prone to big expensive things breaking spontaneously. 

As an aside, the Black Jack Special is pretty awesome and, Frenchy, your history with the car has raised my already high estimation of you.  Nicely done Sir!

Ovid_and_Flem said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Wow!  I was going to Ask if the d-type Vintage racing picture was the car. Now I understand why it is in a museum.  Was it the no. 5 car?

Just glanced back at thread and I saw that your friend has a competition license. In thinking about your initial post about his declining health I can't help but surmise that his request perhaps was him reaching out to you not only as someone to maintain the car, but also seeking your companionship to share the experience. After all as an amateur Road racer myself for 20 or 25 years it really is about the relationships you forge and the overall experience rather than just the racing itself. Good luck in your search and hopefully you and your friend will have many more years chasing the Red Mist.

Obviously your friend has a stout budget if he was considering the Blackjack special. Given his apparent penchant for vintage but also seeking reliable why not consider a race prep Caterham 7? I've seen them near perfect trade hands 4 Less Than 25000.  One nice 8k mile example with full cage and 200+ hp ford zerec for $16k about 3 years ago.  I would assume that vintage sanctioning bodies allow them to run? Also could run NASA, SCCA, HPDE, ETC.

Doesn't sound like chumpcar or lemons would be his cup of tea.

Yes the Black Jack is the number 5 car . thank You. He does have a MGTC special but it lost it’s engine ( which I happen to have a spare one I could build for him) and needs a complete overhaul ( which I’m capable of doing)  but while that will get him an invite to Monterey there are only a few events a year  for that old a car. Not enough to keep him busy every weekend.

I’m pretty sure he’d want a proper vintage car with a decent provenance. And frankly something big and loud.

I  thought of that right after we finished talking and since then I’ve been trying to figure a way to join him.  His wife preceded him and he doesn’t have children  so this has to be hard to face alone.  

I broached it with my fiancé and wow was she ever violently against it. I sort of understand, after all the knot tying event is late in 2018 summer and the house still isn’t finished as she’d like it. 

 That plus other than vintage racing we haven’t shared much, in fact my fiancé hasn’t met him in the 4 years we’ve been together.  It’s mostly my problem  since I’ve spent the past 20 years building this house.   ( a normal house takes 2500-3000 manhours, I’m at 31,000 with about 5000 left to finish. 

In reply to APEowner :

Yes a Miata is certainly going to get him competitive track time. On the other hand it’s not a big loud brute like my Black Jack. Imagine a dirt track sprint car with a loud Offy  only set up for sportscar racing.  

 That’s the sort of thing he wants to play with

Oh by the way when I say big I don’t mean in size. The Black Jack is smaller than a Miata size wise.  But big in performances, 300+ horsepower in a Car as small as a MG Midget with the aerodynamics to push  150 + mph  and weigh less than 2000 pounds

In reply to frenchyd :

It’s over, he called and increased his offer another $50,000 only to be rebuffed.  

He searched as many places as he could including having some brokers involved. Nothing he thought interesting enough to hold his attention for the time he had left was discovered. 

I don’t blame him, with a finite amount of time left he doesn’t want to spend much of it in a frustrating search for something that might not happen.  

Last night he made an offer on a nicely restored 50 ft. schooner,  it was accepted. He’s on his way to provision it and get it ready for a sailing adventure.  His thoughts are to sail the South Pacific and get there Via the Panama Canal ( it’s in Florida)  

He’s scheduled to get to Australia by May and then on to New Zealand.  Ultimately when the weather is right he wants to sail the roaring 40’s around the Magellan straight and then up into the Mediterranean.  

He thinks he can return back to the states before things will get too bad medically for him.  There is a website for crews so he doesn’t expect too much difficulty getting three or 4  crew to help him.  

Ive got a standing offer to join him.  With my free flying privileges I might be able to join him this summer for a while if I can talk SWMBO into it. 

I wish I could figure out how to show the pictures he sent me of the sailboat.  Classic low hull wooden schooner, looks right out of the 1920’s ( although built in the 60’s.) 

What a way to go!

In reply to frenchyd :

Whoa...that took a detour I didn't see.  Good for him!  Keep us posted.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

Given his circumstances I completely understand not wanting to wait and see

https://www.advanced-autosports.com/pages/rentals-arrive-drive

http://www.nasaracing.net/driving/rent-a-racecar/

http://vintageracerental.com/vintage_racing_packages.html

http://www.vintageracingservices.com/vrs/race-car-rental

theres a number of outfits out there...  what does he want to drive?   I am pretty sure I have seen club ford rentals too.    this is about 5 min of googling

frenchyd said:

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

Given his circumstances I completely understand not wanting towait and see

 

Not that it's any of our business, and I understand if you prefer to respect his privacy, but genrally what medical condition is he facing?

I currently race with SCCA, HSR, AER, WRL, and FIA Creventic 24H Series. 

I've built race cars and bought them. Buying is always cheaper. You can find a good IT car for $5,000ish, not competitive but a good car that you can race. Don't buy anything "weird" just because it's cool, sometimes I had that mentality that I wanted to build for example a wild Alfa, because you don't ever see them racing. Want to know why? Yeah, stick with what's popular as it will be cheaper, easier to find help, and easier to resell.

I had the advantage of living near Road Atlanta (still do) so I didn't tow two or three of my cars, I just drove to the track. So no towing and no hotel expenses. In that case on a good weekend expect to spend around $1,200 per weekend. Sometimes less depending on my tire situation. Tires last a long time on some cars. Some others not so much. For example BFG R1s will last a long time, super soft Hoosiers will loose their punch quickly and not always last as long after.

I had an HP VW, great fun to drive but cost more than IT. Fuel alone was $10.50/gallon and I usually bought at least ten gallons a weekend as I only had an eight liter cell. Tires were bias ply race slicks (non-DOT). They lasted a few weekends if I was nice. Then other little things add up. It was much more to run than a low end IT car. Though it was quick and competitive. 

Endurance racing is a great way to go, split the cost with some friends. AER is awesome, usually good field size, nicer cars, good driving for the most part. WRL is the same but they struggle to get large fields. Not sure why. Some nice cars then some more run down examples. Driving wise I see about the same playing field. We gave up on Chump just due to car to car contact. I'm also super picky and always like nicer looking cars so...OCD me finds it hard to be there. lol..

I don't own now I rent. Which is way nicer, show up and drive.