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maciekb2002
maciekb2002 New Reader
2/12/16 8:03 p.m.

Clutch is a sweet looking unit . Big thanks for measurements. That will make my life much easier. I mounted the same set of pedals in one of the projects where I work. What is the plan for engine mounts ? Extending brackets ? Looks like merc benz will be in the center of interest for a while .

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/12/16 9:55 p.m.
93EXCivic wrote: This and the other Benz build thread are not helping my Benz lust. I want an old Benz something fierce...

You can pick them up pretty cheap usually. Watch out for floor rust. But be warned!! They will multiply like rabbits!! I actually forgot about one I have!

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/13/16 12:14 a.m.

are the holes for these mounts that are too short lined up fore and aft? meaning if they were the right length would they bolt in? if so then the motor would be in the stock location, because the m117 mount arms are straight out like those m119 mount arms are. is the arm on the passenger side the same amount off? did you get rid of the m117 you had in it already with the original mounts?

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/13/16 2:10 a.m.

just for reference, the top is a m117 for a 280sel 4.5 and lower is a m119 for a 500sl m119 which i think im buying tomorrow. they use the same lower pan gasket and if you look at where the lower bolt holes are they line up exactly.it actually look like it would bolt on. there is one on ebay for like 60 bucks shipped. it might save you some headaches later. thanks for the pics too, that may have really just put 100 hp under my hood over a m117.

HunterBenz
HunterBenz New Reader
2/13/16 3:15 a.m.

The mount is about 3/4 of an inch forward of where it would sit on the car, but that is for the one I have. There are more mounting holes drilled and taped on the block for the mount that are about 3/4 of an inch further back. I'm not using those mounts anyway so I never really looked if they could be moved back. I don't have the old M117. I have an aluminum block M117, but it is still in the euro 500SEL (W126). The car is at my grandmother's in a different city. That was the original engine I was going to put in my W108, but then I happened on the M119. Like I said before though, if you move the motor back 3/4 of an inch from where I have it, the manifold gets pretty close to the steering box and will be resting against, if not flat trying to occupy the same space as the structural rails on either side of the engine.

Before I started cutting in the car I looked for a reasonably priced M119 forward sump pan, but couldn't find one. Then on top of the pan, there is the pickup, and anything else that might be different. It might have saved headache of cutting, but not enough for me to go searching down 100 little parts I can't source easily and cheap enough. Especially for an unknown.

Another thing, I moved the alternator to where the smog air pump was. I don't remember if this saved interference issues or not. I remember not liking having the alternator hanging out off the bottom of the engine with the smog pump gone.

AND to change the oil, if the stock oil canister stays, you'll need to pull the engine up a bit to open the canister. I'm thinking of trying to make a plate to adapt a remote filter, but have not even started looking into that yet.

I'm going to keep my eyes out for a split case auto bell housing though. I just found out that a piece of aluminum plate big enough to make a trans adaptor is quite a bit more than I thought it would be.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/13/16 5:35 a.m.

In reply to HunterBenz: Do you have EPC access? It's great to see if one part is used in other cars and get part numbers. The oil pump which has the pickup is the same for your motor 119.980 (I think) and the sl500 front sump 119.982(I think), not on the epc to check now. The two piece case trans is the 722.6 and it is in the 95^ 500sl I believe. It may be in the w210 e420 too I forgot to look. W140 may have changed in 95/96 also. Big plates of aluminum are real pricey. There is an adapter for a 350z trans to m119 on eBay from some drift company but it's like 300$ plus I believe. Look at the non MB trans to MB engines thread for details on that. It's huge but me and another guy rafielli come in about page 19 and get things rolling again. Oh man! I am so torn over if I should go m119 with all the mods needed or alloy m116 4.2 that will bolt in but definitely need a turbo to get over 300hp. Will sliceing the rail top and bottom and replacing the inner portion with flat steel an inch or so outward for more room be a huge issue? I honestly haven't had my head under my hood in a little while. Been rockin the Subaru in the snow and salt out here.

HunterBenz
HunterBenz Reader
2/13/16 6:00 p.m.

No I don't have EPC access. That is what parts stores used to do for me. The last one that I could go to with measurements and they would help me look just closed. Now that I think of it, I should have tried to get one of their parts interchange books. Bummer, all parts stores now are usually have people that don't know how to do anything but ask you what car you have and read numbers on a computer.

Good news though, today I found a pilot bearing that matches my application pretty much perfectly. Very common Ford truck pilot bearing from the 90's on up. Pretty excited about this.

Rwd4evr, this probably means a pilot bearing should also be very easy to find for the T-5. Heck, I would not be surprised if it is the same one.

Bearing

And yes, I didn't just trust my measurements. I have tried pressing it in a bit. Seems to fit perfectly.

Pilot bearing.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/13/16 6:31 p.m.

i spent a little time on the Mercedes EPC(electronic parts catalog) today, its awesome. if you have an old benz, get an account. i think its free but you need a card. it cross references cars and part numbers. here is a list of the m119 powered cars that have the 722.6 xx two piece removable bellhousing auto transmission. they will be 722.620/622/625

(R129.067 '93 500SL '94-'98 SL500)

(w140.042 '92 400SE) (w140.043 '93-'99 400SEL/S400)

. (w140.051 '92-'99 S500) (w140.070 '93-'99 500SEC/S500c)

(w210.072 '97 E420/AMG E50)(w210.272 '97 E420/AMG E50 wagon) i think '95 is when they changed the way the car are named, 400se or S400. hollanderparts.com will search junkyards all over the country, great resource. probably be better off at a pick a part so you can grab just the bell. or get a cheap crapbox/parts car and sell the rest,if you have the space it will help payoff your project.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/13/16 6:44 p.m.

In reply to HunterBenz:

yes i have also found that mustangs use the same size pilot bearing as most mercedes, im putting a t5 behind my m110 six cyl car too. what is that saginaw from? it looks way nicer than most and has a tourque arm mount? monza/vega maybe?

oh and i wouldnt press that in yet, you may not want to go all the way in with it once everthng is set right.and you can bolt a t5 or tko right in place of that top loader for overdrive im pretty sure.

HunterBenz
HunterBenz New Reader
2/13/16 8:47 p.m.

I don't know what the Saginaw came out of, other than that it came out of a car that was used in Fast and Furious 5. It was probably a transplant in that as well. I spent a fair bit of time cleaning up the outside to make it look as nice as the gears. Easier to sell that way. Someone did a nice rebuild on it, just didn't clean it, haha.

I don't know how much power a T5 can take. I keep hearing they will break with any power to them. I'm going with the toploader because it can take a bunch of power and I don't have to worry about breaking it. I may eventually go to a TKO or something but I'm looking at getting this thing going before my kids are in college, so I am trying to get the initial build done on a pretty small budget (my oldest is 2 ).

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/13/16 9:49 p.m.

you really just want to stay away from any gm t5 you can find,there are a few exception though. the ford 4 and early 6 cylinder cars have high .39 and up first gear and thats the weak link, the 5.0 and 94 and up v6 mustang were rated at 265 and 305 but hod rod mustangs make way more than that. the .335 gear is good and the .295 first is better. no 1st gear clutch dump or 3rd flat shfts and it will live.there are aftermarket input shafts and gearsets to go up to 500 ft/lbs, may as well get a tr3550/tko at hat point though. your safe with that top loader though.

what are your rear axle plans? ive got a good idea.

HunterBenz
HunterBenz New Reader
2/13/16 10:08 p.m.

I don't know what the stock diff can take. I know the axles and housings are more or less the same between the W108 and W109, but the W109 had a beefier joint at the pivot. Rote Sau used the stock W109 diff with something like 450 ft/lbs with super fatty tires. I'll see what the stock W108 can take.

If that blows up or otherwise disintegrates it will be hard to decide on a rear end. I think I might just go with a Ford 9 inch because they are pretty dang common in the junkyard near where I live. Then again, there are some good reference points with the swing arm set up that might make an IRS easy enough to adopt.

Basically, I'll go there when I have to. Haha.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/13/16 10:20 p.m.

In reply to HunterBenz:

They will take plenty of power from what I understand. the problem I have Is no LSD. That's gonna piss me off after about three turns. I think a fox body 8.8 rear(bullet proof with a aluminum cover/support)use the stock control arms and spring location with a torque arm and watts link. A pan hard will do but watts is better. I talked to a guy that designs suspension for live axle road race cars, he said to give him the suspension arm lengths, angles and pivot points and he would figure out how long the torque arm should be and where to mount it. That swing axle get spooky at the limit too!!

HunterBenz
HunterBenz New Reader
2/13/16 10:45 p.m.

The super rare LSD thing would get annoying. I'll probably end up welding it and waiting for it to break while doing some leg work on figuring out how to mount up another axle.

I basically have not thought that far ahead. I don't like to plan out everything at first. I don't do it for 2 reasons. One, plans always fall to E36 M3 anyway. Two, if I knew what this would cost up front I'd be discouraged about the time it would take me just to save up the cash and I'd ditch the project.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/13/16 11:06 p.m.

Yeah the welded rear is annoying but not as bad as one tire on Fire. <can get annoying is what I meant. Not sure how much the center joint will like it either. Time will tell I suppose. I love how this site changes $hit to E36 M3!!!! Hilarious!!! What is fu<k? berkeley!? Hahaha!! This is my new favorite forum.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/16/16 6:51 a.m.

In reply to HunterBenz: I was thinking about a full rx7 FD rear subframe. It's the right width but it would be a pretty good bit of fab work. If it wasn't just right you would end up with a major problem though.

HunterBenz
HunterBenz Reader
2/17/16 6:49 p.m.

The problem I would have with an FD rear subframe is parts availability. I want mine to be decently easy to source parts for.

For the couple that are still interested in my sporratic and relatively minimal updates... I have been up for over 24 hours, so I dare not measure for other stuff. But I got the flywheel back from the machine shop today (I will not be using them ever again).

Clutch mounted up.

Feels good to be moving forward. Next up is to measure how thick I want the adapter plate to be and buy material to start the mating process. Lets see what kind of crazy child this makes.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/18/16 1:47 a.m.

In reply to HunterBenz:

I was thinking fd sub because there are parts available as far as I knew.big brakes and coilovers. they are one of the most badass LS swap Powered chassis you can run. You can get Jdm front and rear subframes for less than 1000$ which is way lower than art Morrison subframes or my ultimate option, a full Shwartz pro touring chassis. But whatever. The w111/108 front end handles very well. I'm picking up a 99 S500 tomorrow and I have plans for the car to run for a while till its ready to donate all its go and stop bits. I have found how to put the massive w140 brakes on the w108 I'm pretty sure. 320mm front 300mm rear. W124 front hubs should work. I want to work it out myself but Mercedes stuff seems to fit other benz chassis very well. I can't wait to play with all these parts.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/18/16 1:50 a.m.

On the machine work for the clutch, what's the problem ? It looks ok? Hope they didn't drop the ball. I want to see it all touching and resting where it needs to. Get an accurate measurement. I'll have a bellhousing tomorrow!!!!!!!!!!!!

bluej
bluej SuperDork
2/18/16 10:38 a.m.

On the adapter plate, you can get a 12"x12"x1/2" alum plate on Amazon for $42 shipped. Seemed decent to me. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00UTU8INM/ref=mp_s_a_1_29?qid=1455813169&sr=8-29&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=aluminum+plate

Might be just right for a bell to trans case adapter. I saw 18" square for ~$77. How much were you expecting it to be?

HunterBenz
HunterBenz New Reader
2/18/16 12:22 p.m.

The metal place near me wants 194.00. 12x12 is too small, needs to be at least 18x18. I'll check out Amazon.

I was expecting 100, maybe a little more. Not almost double that. Maybe the guy misunderstood what I was asking. They usually aren't too far off from internet prices.

As for the machine shop. The machinist first missed a hole. Then, after he finished it, I picked it up, got it home, one of the holes was almost exactly .01 inches off. JUST enough to not allow for a bolt hole to line up properly. I had to shave it a bit. The center hole is just barely too big, but usable.

The issue I really have, is I gave the guy a template from the engine. It is a spacer that sandwiches the flexplate on the crank. I told the guy to put this bolt pattern centered on the flywheel. I don't see why it wouldn't get done right. I knew I shouldn't have had it done there. The older guy I used a long time ago that had nothing but WWII era machines retired and I couldn't find a suitable replacement at the time.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/18/16 4:02 p.m.

In reply to HunterBenz: Oh man that sucks. I hope you didn't pay him. Or get him to get you a new flywheel. I failed on getting the parts car today, almost drove an hour and a half with no dolly straps. DOH!! I'm gonna be so bent if it sells before Saturday. The 722.6 bell is 7 5/8 deep from face to face. The machined bore is ~6 inches. Are you gonna go for a plate to motor to bellhousing setup?

HunterBenz
HunterBenz New Reader
2/18/16 8:35 p.m.

Well, I have not gone back to the machinist yet. The more I look at the flywheel, the more annoyed I get. I gave him one of the spacers to copy and he drilled through a portion of the spacer to make the cut. So he obviously wasn't watching when he did it. Or he was, and hoped I wouldn't notice. And not sure why I put .01 inches off above, it is .06 inches off.

Does anyone know if a .5 inch hole in .3 inch thick steel at .06 inches off from center will cause the flywheel to be much off balance? The majority of the holes are just a hair over 1.5 inches out from center.

The issue, I have found, is the bolt pattern is 8 bolts with 1 dowel pin hole. 7 of the 8 bolts are just a hair over 1.5 inches from center. One bolt hole is .06 inches closer. The machinist drilled the all out at the same hair over 1.5 inches from center. Along with my spacer, luckily there are 2 on the motor and I only need one with this flywheel setup.

Me being me, I took of .06 inches of material from the one hole and the bolt fits. It doesn't change the fact that I paid fair hourly for a GOOD machinist for a machinist, good or not, to do sub-par work. I'm going to talk to them tomorrow morning.

The_Jed
The_Jed PowerDork
2/18/16 9:19 p.m.

Sounds like the guy is an operator, not a machinist.

Rwd4evr
Rwd4evr New Reader
2/19/16 1:59 a.m.

In reply

Oh nooooooo! The bolt pattern is 7 bolts at 40mm radius and one at 38mm radius. 55 mm center bore. That machinist is a berkeleying idiot! Especially with the washer in hand to compare. He did zero setup and check. I bet he started knocking out holes then realized his mistake and just went with it. The bolt pattern is like that so it only goes on one way to keep the timing right. The dowel pin should be used but isn't on some engines. The m117/116/119 all use this crank pattern. He fudged you, get your money back and have him replace your flywheel and washer. If the center bore was correct I wouldn't worry too much, but if there is any movement on the crank to flywheel then nooooooo!! If that thing can move just a hair imagine the forces at 7000rpm. Damn that sucks. Please read the whole thread on peach parts I posted before, there is tons of info there. I'm real sorry, who is this hack machinist so no one else goes to him? Oh and get off the sae (") measurements. None of that on a benz. Or a newish American car for that matter.

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