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nocones
nocones PowerDork
10/17/22 10:32 a.m.

In reply to Gimp (Forum Supporter) :

That's alarming..  

Was there a you issue with assembly?  They appears to be a unmodified aftermarket brake assembly.  Bent pushrods shouldn't happen..  I would think.

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
10/17/22 10:40 a.m.
nocones said:

In reply to Gimp (Forum Supporter) :

That's alarming..  

Was there a you issue with assembly?  They appears to be a unmodified aftermarket brake assembly.  Bent pushrods shouldn't happen..  I would think.

Long story short, I was bleeding the brakes with my wife.  I didn't think she was getting enough pressure so we swapped roles and I worked the pedal.  Things were bled pretty well, but I thought I'd give one more big push to see if anything was left, and I pushed too hard.  The pedal went to the normal full travel position, but then I kept pushing and bent the rod.

 

Hulk smash.

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
10/20/22 9:16 a.m.

So I have been working on fixing a brake issue (video coming soon) with the Camaro, and I was working on hanging the pedal box.

 

For some background, the pedal box used to mount on-top of the bracket we installed in the car, but later on I moved the box to mount under the bracket so I could move it further back and move the pedals down a bit.  Because I have the mind of a goldfish, I don't always remember which way was the "correct" way.

I finished the work I had to do and installed the pedal box under the bracket, confident I did everything correctly.  The only thing I hadn't attached to the pedal assembly was the bias adjusting cable, since my new one won't arrive until Monday.  I figured I shouldn't have an issue installing this with the box in the car, but once I had finished congratulating myself on getting the brake stuff handled, I decided to take a peek back inside the dash so I could be sure that I could install the cable without pulling everything back out.  When I looked inside, I saw this:

 

 

The threaded rod running east-west is the balance bar for the pedal assembly.  The bias adjusting cable threads onto the end of this cable.  Well, how is that possible with the mounting bracket for the pedal box in the way?  I figured I must have screwed up which side of the bracket the pedal box mounts too, but I wasn't so sure.  I went back and looked at recent pictures and video, and sure enough, the box mounts to the bottom, so I was correct.  

So how was I able to successfully install the bias adjusting cable last time?  Well, I really wasn't successful.

 

That is the old cable that came off the pedal box.  Note that's all chewed up on the end.  Harder to see is the fact the cable is a little kinked.

So, at best, the bias adjuster was probably binding up and not doing much, storing the energy in the cable.  Worst case, the adjuster cable/nut was dragging on the bracket and impeding or restricting pedal movement, and may have even been impacting the bias.

I'm always happy to uncover problems, and I'm glad I now know the issue and can fix it, but it's a reminder to double or triple check critical systems.

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
10/26/22 8:11 a.m.

Stop the presses and take a break with me.

 

 

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo PowerDork
10/26/22 1:00 p.m.
Gimp (Forum Supporter) said:

A simple job, bleeding the brakes, has snowballed. I guess I should skip leg day. 
 

 

Video with the carnage and the upgrade path is in the works. 

that's the second one of those I've seen do that recently

81cpcamaro
81cpcamaro SuperDork
10/26/22 4:33 p.m.

Always love good destruction of parts, well done.

Pops and bangs out the exhaust? NO!!!!  Just NO!

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
10/26/22 4:35 p.m.
81cpcamaro said:

Always love good destruction of parts, well done.

Pops and bangs out the exhaust? NO!!!!  Just NO!

LOL.  Not going for the "mall parking lot" settings, but launch control will help get off the line better.

81cpcamaro
81cpcamaro SuperDork
10/26/22 4:56 p.m.

Launch control is good, just don't set it to pop and bang or else thar will be trouble a brewin' cheeky

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
10/27/22 5:53 a.m.
81cpcamaro said:

Launch control is good, just don't set it to pop and bang or else thar will be trouble a brewin' cheeky

But I mean, if you shoot fireballs out the exhaust and set a cone at the start line on fire does it count as a penalty?

81cpcamaro
81cpcamaro SuperDork
10/27/22 9:59 a.m.

In reply to Apexcarver :

Probably, or an outright disqualification knowing the SCCA.

759NRNG
759NRNG PowerDork
10/27/22 11:12 a.m.
81cpcamaro said:

In reply to Apexcarver :

Probably, or an outright disqualification knowing the SCCA.

But you're always welcome here......most massive calves is a goal? 

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
10/27/22 3:26 p.m.

Stefan Vapaa on Facebook gave me some really solid knowledge on the balance bar setup that I wanted to share here:

 

Sure thing. The balance bar is a great little piece of engineering. It is so simple yet accomplishes so much.

Besides the benefits you mentioned in your video such as adjustable balance (duh) and adjustable pedal height, it also is an integral part of the safety of a dual master cylinder braking system.

If for some reason you have a hydraulic failure in a line, caliper, or master cylinder... Without the dual master system the pedal would go straight to the floor. With the dual master system, AND the balance bar, the failed circuit goes down (as far as it can) because there is no pressure in the system. BUT, at the same time the balance bar "cocks and locks" in the bearing sleeve, giving you at least partial pressure in the circuit that has not failed. Thus, you can still slow the car.

That is why Wilwood specifies the gap from the bearing sleeve in the pedal arm to the two pushrod receivers on either side. If that were set up with too much gap, the "cock and lock" action wouldn't happen, or wouldn't happen soon enough. With that gap nice and close, it happens fairly soon in the pedal travel and you get a fair amount of braking pressure from the working circuit.

SO... All that leads to your problem.

You were trying to bleed a single caliper corner and as you pressed the pedal you were fighting the un-opened circuit AND only getting partial travel at the pedal as a result. That is why you weren't seeing the volume of fluid movement that you expected at the bleeder. The balance bar was cocked, as it is designed to do, and was attempting to "save you" by giving you pressure on the un-opened hydraulic circuit.

I guess you didn't skip "leg day" and just put too much pressure on the cocked bar and bent the rod, since it was at a bit of an angle now.

The fix, as you have since surmised, is to use one of three bleeding methods:

1. disconnect the balance bar and bleed each axle circuit individually,

2. bleed both the single side calipers, front and rear, at the same time, or

3. pressure/vacuum bleed

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
10/27/22 5:05 p.m.
Gimp (Forum Supporter) said:

Stefan Vapaa on Facebook gave me some really solid knowledge on the balance bar setup that I wanted to share here:

 

Sure thing. The balance bar is a great little piece of engineering. It is so simple yet accomplishes so much.

Besides the benefits you mentioned in your video such as adjustable balance (duh) and adjustable pedal height, it also is an integral part of the safety of a dual master cylinder braking system.

If for some reason you have a hydraulic failure in a line, caliper, or master cylinder... Without the dual master system the pedal would go straight to the floor. With the dual master system, AND the balance bar, the failed circuit goes down (as far as it can) because there is no pressure in the system. BUT, at the same time the balance bar "cocks and locks" in the bearing sleeve, giving you at least partial pressure in the circuit that has not failed. Thus, you can still slow the car.

That is why Wilwood specifies the gap from the bearing sleeve in the pedal arm to the two pushrod receivers on either side. If that were set up with too much gap, the "cock and lock" action wouldn't happen, or wouldn't happen soon enough. With that gap nice and close, it happens fairly soon in the pedal travel and you get a fair amount of braking pressure from the working circuit.

SO... All that leads to your problem.

You were trying to bleed a single caliper corner and as you pressed the pedal you were fighting the un-opened circuit AND only getting partial travel at the pedal as a result. That is why you weren't seeing the volume of fluid movement that you expected at the bleeder. The balance bar was cocked, as it is designed to do, and was attempting to "save you" by giving you pressure on the un-opened hydraulic circuit.

I guess you didn't skip "leg day" and just put too much pressure on the cocked bar and bent the rod, since it was at a bit of an angle now.

The fix, as you have since surmised, is to use one of three bleeding methods:

1. disconnect the balance bar and bleed each axle circuit individually,

2. bleed both the single side calipers, front and rear, at the same time, or

3. pressure/vacuum bleed

Thank you for this. As I am currently setting up a balance bar and dual master cylinder setup in my stock car project I am learning from your experience. Can you elaborate a bit more on setting pedal height with the balance bar? I would love to get my pedal lower to the floor then it currently is for ergonomic reasons

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
10/31/22 10:11 a.m.

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Setting the height is actually pretty easy.  Once you have the angle of the balance bar set to your preference, you just wind the threaded portion of both master cylinder rods in or out the same amount.  This will swing the pedal fore or aft.

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
11/8/22 10:33 p.m.

I tried to make a bracket and it looked like crap, so I drilled a hole in my windshield instead. 
 

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
11/21/22 3:01 p.m.

Wiring is my least favorite thing, so I made way too long of a video about it.

 

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
12/1/22 9:36 p.m.

Dash finally re-wrapped and installed. I'm liking the new gauge layout. 
 

jh36
jh36 Dork
12/4/22 9:41 p.m.

It's been a minute since I've logged in...your car is looking awesome!  

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
12/8/22 9:39 a.m.

I did finally get some pictures from Nats.  I do like this car.

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
12/29/22 3:22 p.m.
stafford1500
stafford1500 Dork
12/29/22 3:39 p.m.

In reply to Gimp (Forum Supporter) :

Where do you want to start?

Canard is French for goose...

Rules outline will be needed at some point

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
12/29/22 3:41 p.m.
stafford1500 said:

In reply to Gimp (Forum Supporter) :

Where do you want to start?

Canard is French for goose...

Rules outline will be needed at some point

I have the specific rules and my questions outlined in the new thread I linked above.

Gimp (Forum Supporter)
Gimp (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
1/23/23 9:36 a.m.

Canard building going as planned, but a few other things have to happen at the same time.

It wouldn't be the off season if I wasn't messing with foam, packing tape, and fiberglass.

 

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