Fiat x1/9 + bike engine challenge build

alfadriver said:

You might consider doing an X while you are making the front diagonals.  that will make sure that the car structure is stiff enough front to back.  

Not sure if adding those would require another hoop in the front, but it would help a lot.  Heck, you might even be able to use the square tubes, since it's not the roll cage system.

Interesting thought. I have been considering this too. First, here is what I am thinking for the diagonal front brace (I apologize the pics aren't from a better angle). It would go from the roll bar to the inner sill, not the outer door frame like the pic makes it look:

I was thinking that alone should add enough stiffness front to back since it is making a big triangle. That said, the door bars I unbolted would be really easy to bolt back in after some clean up, and they bolt on both ends to the outer door frames. They would look like this:

You're suggesting I make something like this instead? (again, outer door frame to outer door frame)?

In reply to Robbie :

Yes, I'm suggesting the bottom picture set up.  The only one that certainly does not need a front hoop is the top one, adding door bars or the X might- so look into that.  It would be cool if you could do the top for safety, and add the other bars for just stiffness and be allowed to do that.

In reply to alfadriver :

Those aren't there for stiffness - those are there so I can have something to rivet the fiberglass doors to! As far as I know, riveting to a roll cage is frowned upon.

A little more progress. I went out last night to build a little stand for the motor for mocking things up.

Well, that was much easier than expected... It's very flat and stable.

I then needed something to fit in our rear sprocket to approximate the diff, again for mockup.

Our family eats a lot of yogurt, so I've been saving the containers since they are so useful. Didn't let me down here!

Next I took some casual measurements.

(I'm pointing at the exhaust port where the header will bolt on.) About 28 inches overall, and yes the diff is quite close but as we will see we need this to be as close as possible to the motor.

About 24 inches tall.

And about 19 inches wide.

After measuring the opening in the car, the height and width are not issues. The length however, will be our sticking point. We have 22 inches front to back in the engine bay, and if we cut into the fuel tank and spare tire locations we can get up to about 12 more before the passenger compartment.

Also, I started pulling more small stuff:

Crusty.... But wait, is that a fuel pump?

Wow! Bendix! Neat piece, I might try to see if I can get it to run later.

Also, I weighed all the fiberglass stuff. hood 16lbs, trunk lid 5lbs, doors 10lbs together. So 31lbs of fiberglass, if we count up the mounting pins and other hardware we are at probably 35lbs total.

Compared to a 30lb stock hood. Not too bad!

Very cool! So are the hopes to have it at the $2018 Challenge? Sorry if you mentioned that already and I missed it. 

In reply to AWSX1686 :

Yes, but there is a LOT of work to do between then and now. Luckily I have been working on collecting parts without updating the thread, so now we can focus simply on building. First up, getting the diff mounted to the engine and second getting the engine in the car.

Robbie said:

In reply to AWSX1686 :

Yes, but there is a LOT of work to do between then and now. Luckily I have been working on collecting parts without updating the thread, so now we can focus simply on building. First up, getting the diff mounted to the engine and second getting the engine in the car.

Awesome! Looking forward to meeting you and seeing it perform. Good luck!

Looks like 24" forward of the axle center line then? Sounds like there will be some cutting involved then...not the worst thing, but it's more work for sure.

Since you'll want a different oil pan for car use anyway, why not rotate the engine around the differential a little bit to solve the cutting issues?

BEC's usually have to alter the oil pans and oiling since the engines aren't designed to deal with lateral loads without being tipped over.  Many that don't do this end up with blown up bottom ends after a few runs.

Stefan said:

Since you'll want a different oil pan for car use anyway, why not rotate the engine around the differential a little bit to solve the cutting issues?

BEC's usually have to alter the oil pans and oiling since the engines aren't designed to deal with lateral loads without being tipped over.  Many that don't do this end up with blown up bottom ends after a few runs.

So you're saying that because the engine is not going to tip drastically at all (like besides hills)you need a different oil pan and system? Wouldn't that mean extended straight line highway use would cause the same issues if it were in a motorcycle?

In reply to Mezzanine :

Yeah, about 24 inches forward. We plan to run IRS with cv axles so the diff and sprocket will be as far back as possible, likely behind the wheel centerline a bit, but as you can see the diff can't be much behind the wheel centerline before the axles would start interfering with the control arms.

Here's the 22 inch measurement:

And then from the side so you can see the wheel centerline vs the sprocket which is as close to "B" as we can get it. Good news is we should be able to be quite close to the wheel centerline vertically though.

Finally, here is a shot of the 'extra' 12 inches we may be able to get. Lots of structural unibody here, so we will need to reinforce, but the photo gives an idea of the space involved.

BTW - I love making these images on my tablet! Just grab a photo and start marking it up with a 'real' pen.

AWSX1686 said:

Stefan said:

Since you'll want a different oil pan for car use anyway, why not rotate the engine around the differential a little bit to solve the cutting issues?

BEC's usually have to alter the oil pans and oiling since the engines aren't designed to deal with lateral loads without being tipped over.  Many that don't do this end up with blown up bottom ends after a few runs.

So you're saying that because the engine is not going to tip drastically at all (like besides hills)you need a different oil pan and system? Wouldn't that mean extended straight line highway use would cause the same issues if it were in a motorcycle?

No, its the turning g's on the oil without the 'tipping' against the g's. The oil in a bike sees mostly downward g's (relative to the engine) regardless of straight or turn. The car's oil can see g's in all different directions.

Stefan - we did get a trick oil sump already from a forum member, I think it's posted earlier in the thread. Its just not on my mockup motor.

We have also had many many many cups of binky tea over the engine+diff arrangement. If the diff is below the engine, it solves some problems but creates others like now we have a much higher center of gravity and have to re-route the exhaust. Some people run a 'mid shaft' and two chains, but in that scenario you still have to package everything. Right now I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible.

Pulled out more stuff last night. Basically just need to drop the front suspension and then this baby is stripped.

Finished stripping the front suspension last night. All that is left to remove is the front and rear sway bar and an aftermarket battery tray that was installed in the gas tank location. I will try to get a she'll weight after that, but I can tell you it is LIGHT. I can pick up either end quite easily. I'm sure with another person we could lift the shell, that picture with two women holding up the shell is probably not that far from the truth.

All 4 suspension corners. I swear there is like 300 lbs right here...

If you plan to keep the widened stock wheels on the car, I just removed the slicks from the set of wheels that came with mine. I have no plans to use them, maybe we can work a trade or I can sell em to ya cheap? 20x8x13 45B's

I am trying to keep my X under budget but there is no way I am getting to the Challenge this year. I wish I could make the trip and see this car run!

In reply to gumby :

Yes! I want to trade something. Anything you need specifically? I have lots of x1/9 stuff, but other stuff too. 

Robbie said:

Anything you need specifically?

Got a decent condition carb fuel tank? The back side of mine is crushed in for some unknown reason...
Maybe a 5spd shifter that doesn't have 3" play, in gear?

I am sure my list could grow as I work toward getting this thing back on the road, but those things jump out at me right now.

Hmmm. I'll look, but I don't have a good feeling about either. I had a carb gas tank but it had pin holes at the bottom. Now that I think about it I have no idea where that went... I'll poke around a bit.

Well, I got the chassis down to bare except for the sway bars, and decided to weigh it to give myself a bit of a starting point. How do you weigh a car like this you say?

Just put on your redneck thinking cap, grab 3 bathroom scales, and increase the level of jank by one:

Two in the back one in the front.

Front upside down of course so you can read it....

Without further ado, drumroll please!

270 front

+130 rear driver side

+110 rear passenger.

Total : 510 lbs! Wow! 

I did also weigh the 4 suspension assemblies, rears are 63lbs each and fronts are 47lbs each. For an even 220lbs.

PS, I did confirm all 3 scales read my weight correctly and within a lb or two of each other.

Comments on the weight: overall I am impressed with how light this is, but considering about 2000 lbs full stock weight, 1/4 of that being the bare chassis makes sense.

Mine here already has the windshield frame removed, so that is probably some weight there, and there are some speed holes (both intentional and rust) present. But there are also two sway bars added, so that would probably just about cancel out any rust factor I think. I'd guess the bare shells coming out of the factory were right about 550lbs.

Next up chassis wise: weld in roll bar, weld in forward bars, then start removing floor for rust repair and completion of center seating position.

More bike parts for high performance

Damn that's light! 

In reply to coexist :

Gah! I've seen that and I need those rear wheels. They are very similar to mine but appear to be wider.