mke
mke HalfDork
8/30/19 1:40 p.m.

I was a little worried that the valve smashing might of damaged the rod or bearing....but it honestly never occurred to me that there wouldn't be a bearing.  This looks expensive......

Azryael
Azryael New Reader
8/30/19 1:50 p.m.

Yikes.

That wore out a serious chunk of material.

I can't tell, but is that part of a bearing sitting underneath? Were they there and just failed, or was that rod installed without any bearings in the first place?

mke
mke HalfDork
8/30/19 2:04 p.m.

In reply to Azryael :

It's not completely missing.  A little piece here

The rest is here I think

Azryael
Azryael New Reader
8/30/19 2:23 p.m.

Those were chewed up like a snack, my condolences crying

mke
mke HalfDork
8/30/19 2:44 p.m.

The good news is the crank is only about .003 under I think....I can't believe it won't clean up at .010 under, so grind the crank, new bearings, 2 rods and it's fixed.  GT parts thinks they have 400 crank but for sure has a 412 crank which is plenty close enough and also has rods and bearings std,-.010,-.020.  I might be out of this for around $600...the rods are $150 each, not sure what a crank would be if it comes to that.

NermalSnert
NermalSnert Reader
8/30/19 3:36 p.m.

What do you think caused it?

mke
mke HalfDork
8/30/19 4:56 p.m.
NermalSnert said:

What do you think caused it?

My own carelessness.  I reamed the valve guides and did not measure them....they only had 1/2 the clearance they are supposed to have. Then while trouble shooting an ignition issue I changed a setting that caused the timing to be retarded about 20 degrees which made a lot of heat, the heat expanded the valves, a valve stuck in the undersize guide and the piston smashed the snot out of everything, which also beat the bearing out.  Stupid interference engines......or maybe just stupid me.

I got the valves and seats today and the even with today's bad news its really just money and it will be all better so the beat up head is still my biggest concern.  Tomorrow I'll pick up a bit and get back on repairing the head.

mke
mke HalfDork
8/31/19 6:44 a.m.

Here's were yesterday ended...the block is as torn down as it gets.   I have to say though...its so weird tearing it apart and planning to just bolt it back together...haven't been in this position for about 12 years :)

Azryael
Azryael New Reader
8/31/19 1:05 p.m.

I have got to get my other car done before I can do what I want to my other car.

I'd be further along on my own project if I had a home shop, unfortunately, HoA is very picky about additional buildings. I need to get out of the suburbs...

mke
mke HalfDork
8/31/19 3:28 p.m.

Found a little more bearing at the bottom of the sump it looks like.  It don't see anything on the pickups so probably not much if any damage to the oil pump(s) but I'll inspect that pretty well too.

Nader
Nader New Reader
9/1/19 10:12 a.m.

How many hours on the engine before this happened?

mke
mke HalfDork
9/1/19 2:30 p.m.
Nader said:

How many hours on the engine before this happened?

Not sure...3 or 4?  It can be easy to forget that break-in is a dangerous time for an engine...especially one built from welding rod.

Samebutdifferent
Samebutdifferent New Reader
9/1/19 3:42 p.m.

So this begs the question...

With that kind of carnage on the rod, this must have generated a tremendous amount of heat in short order.  This in turn would have heated up the rod journal to dangerous levels given the lack of oil.  While I can't see any discoloration in the crank pictures, it would stand to reason the crank may be out of alignment.  As such, whoever grinds the crank will need to verify the rod journals are all aligned correctly as I'm sure you know.  Will be interesting if the when you have it magnfluxed if it shows any crystallization from the heat.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/1/19 3:47 p.m.

I've never has to beat a valve out of the port before.....I'm pretty sure it's not an experience I feel my life was missing

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
9/1/19 5:47 p.m.

Ow.

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy PowerDork
9/1/19 5:56 p.m.
mke said:

I've never has to beat a valve out of the port before.....I'm pretty sure it's not an experience I feel my life was missing

Ooooof, that's some pretty spectacular carnage.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/2/19 7:48 a.m.
Samebutdifferent said:

So this begs the question...

With that kind of carnage on the rod, this must have generated a tremendous amount of heat in short order.  This in turn would have heated up the rod journal to dangerous levels given the lack of oil.  While I can't see any discoloration in the crank pictures, it would stand to reason the crank may be out of alignment.  As such, whoever grinds the crank will need to verify the rod journals are all aligned correctly as I'm sure you know.  Will be interesting if the when you have it magnfluxed if it shows any crystallization from the heat.

Funny how good the cronk LOOKS, but yes the plan is to drop it at the shop and have it inspected.   I think a couple things were in my favor.  First the way ferrari does the rod bearing oiling, the bearing is a flow restrictor so as soon as the bearing failure the journal gets a ot more oil flow...like nearly all the oil flow which will help cool things.  The crank is billet steel with nitrated journals so its really hard and pretty strong.The other thing is the rods are Titanium which is a whole lot softer than steel and the faster it grinds away the less heat it makes in the crank I'd assume. 

Anyway, yes I need to have it inspected and many need to replace it.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/2/19 9:48 a.m.
Indy-Guy said:

Ooooof, that's some pretty spectacular carnage.

I think I posted pics of the cams that are litterally the most aggressive lobes that could physically be ground on the 25mm base circle Ferrari uses ....rhey had to do q few test grinds which eliminated  my first couple choices......there's just not a lot of margin for error. 

I think its probably intuitively obvious even to the most naive observer that this whole project was a pretty bad idea...I have a gift for bad ideas. frown

Samebutdifferent
Samebutdifferent New Reader
9/2/19 10:12 a.m.

In reply to mke :

And for this, we are thankful...

Syscrush
Syscrush New Reader
9/3/19 10:44 a.m.

Motor updates - that's the stuff...

mke
mke HalfDork
9/3/19 11:47 a.m.
Syscrush said:

Motor updates - that's the stuff...

ask and you will receive :)

With family stuff I didn't get as far as I hoped, but the heads and block are all stripped and cleaned

Way back when this first went together the bearings clearances measured loose so I sent them out to be coated which got things closer to spec.  After a chat with an actual ferrari tech today I think the plan this time is to get the undersize bearings and measure the installed bores, then grind the crank to match....so -.010 under rods and mains are ordered along with a couple replacement rods.....now I still don't know for sure the crank is good but it looks good and  I don't want to drop it of at the shop without a plan for what I want them to do if everything checks out ok. ..so  plan in the works.

 

mke
mke HalfDork
9/3/19 6:35 p.m.

Boxes!  A nice new piston, set of rings and a chunk of iron that a cylinder is hiding inside

mke
mke HalfDork
9/3/19 7:25 p.m.

Whats let of the nasty old seats out.  I was thinking prep it and weld tomorrow....but I'm mostly out of argon so Saturday at the soonest.  Maybe I'll start cutting the cylinder while I wait.

Syscrush
Syscrush New Reader
9/4/19 8:14 a.m.
mke said:

a chunk of iron that a cylinder is hiding inside

So, like, all you gotta do is take off every part that isn't a cylinder? laugh

Good luck. If I hadn't already seen in this thread what you're capable of, I would be freaked out about this head repair, but as things stand I'm just kinda excited to see how you pull it off.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/4/19 8:53 a.m.

In reply to Syscrush :

Right, remove everything that’s not the cylinder….4-6 hours on my little lathe if I remember right. Then final hone on the mill.

Repairing the head is pretty straightforward. Get the sets out, grind away all the beat up, cracked and abused metal, fil it back in with weld, ball mill the chamber back into shape using the neighbor chamber as a guide. Once the guides and seats are in and cut I’ll need to cc match the new chamber to the others. …15-20 hours if I’m being honest I guess. 

 

Then with tear-down and reassembly this becomes a 100-150 hour....which I'll turn into 250-500 with the dyno part most likely.   I was just reading a race engine can dump 1,000,000BTUs into the dyno room at full song so they recommend a 10hp blower or 2 to get at least 10 air changes per minute.......yeah.....I won't have that.  I've been reading a bit about sound control too which is also a large concern.  I sometimes wish I would stop jumping into things without doing even the most basic research first.......sometimes.....

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