FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

In reply to mke :

if i ever make one thing as nice as the shoddiest part you've made for this project, it will be the high water mark of my fabrication life.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks....a buddy was busting my chops about them being not up to my normal standards so now they are 1/8" shorter and shiny 

mke said:

Last week/weekend I sat on the sofa with Lana watching in disbelieve at what wis happening in her country (Ukraine)....what a messed up world.

I am sorry for what your wife (and you) must be going through watching that. After 90 pages of this post I feel almost like I know you, as weird as that is. I just hate what is going on and my heart goes out to Lana and her home country.

Nick

In reply to NY Nick :

Thanks Nick.  Yes, its surreal....you watch something smoking and think "We had lunch across the street.....when there was an across the street".   Just unreal.

I did stuff tonight.  

I pulled the engine and trans sumps.  The engine sump had this odd black stuff the was oil like but didn't seem to want to mix with what clearly is oil...weird.

Th goal here is to replace the 2 seals on the shifter shaft....yes 2 because it goes through the engine sump to get to the trans.  Then ferrari uses a gated shifter which sounds cool but it actually a big pain in the ass because the gate controls has how the shifter linkage works back in the trans so the engine position needs to be well controlled (new stiffer mounts, high power 308s are known for shifting issues ) and the linkage needs to be adjusted about perfectly to make the transmission shift right.  To that end, the best way to adjust it is with the trans sump removed so you can see how everything is engaging in the trans so that cover will go back on for good once the engine is in and linkage adjusted.  And hopefully there will be no more oil leaks.

What did you use for assembly lube?  I have found that pastes with a lot of moly in them will leave a layer of thick gunk in the oil pan.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

could be, that was my first thought but when it wouldn't mix I wasn't sure.  I used permatex ultra slick and I think comp cams cam lube....but go on a kind of transparent red.  The first oil (royal purple) came out really black...it could be some of that too I guess

mke said:

Then ferrari uses a gated shifter which sounds cool but it actually a big pain in the ass because the gate controls has how the shifter linkage works back in the trans so the engine position needs to be well controlled (new stiffer mounts, high power 308s are known for shifting issues ) and the linkage needs to be adjusted about perfectly to make the transmission shift right. 

I have never been smart and sophisticated enough to understand why gated shifters are sexy. It has always seemed to me like a crutch that Ferrari used to compensate for sloppy, nebulous linkages.  But I have never driven one to know.  It's a shame that it took engineers so long to realize that it could all be done better with cables.  

You probably experienced the difficulty of finding a gear in the X1/9 as well.  From what I can see in the pictures, the linkages might be similar between the two cars.  

In reply to GasTungstenArc :

I don't like the feel of cable shifters...everyone I've driven felt spongy but that is for sure a preference thing.

The gated shifter....horrible idea.  I think the idea was you can look and see what gear you're in but that's not really possible when you're driving, and hand on the shifter you just know what gear its in so a pretend solution to a fictitious problem that is really hard to adjust.

Edit:  I'll add this...look at the size of the shifter shaft in the trans and the rest of the setup is similarly robust.  When you put your hand on the shift or move it you always know exactly what's going on, it instills complete confidence.....but i still have no idea why the gate isn't in the trans where it belongs.

The x1/9 on the other hand with the gating in the trans where it belongs always felt pretty good to me.  The one I had was 1980? and had a rubber wafer thing that did making it a little spongy but it was ok and I'm sure removing the wafer would have made it nicer with none of the 308's alignment issues. 1 point for fiat IMO.

mke said:

The x1/9 on the other hand with the gating in the trans where it belongs always felt pretty good to me.  The one I had was 1980? and had a rubber wafer thing that did making it a little spongy but it was ok and I'm sure removing the wafer would have made it nicer with none of the 308's alignment issues. 1 point for fiat IMO.

FIAT owners call the rubber disc device you are talking about the "lollipop," for obvious reasons.  FIAT's problem was the desire to be cheap.  A universal joint like on a steering column would have made the shifter way more positive.  They wanted to produce the X1/9 cheap (FIAT basically didn't want to build the car because they thought it was a frivolous idea,) so they made the lollipop.  It gets mushy over time due to the fact that a FIAT can't hold fluids to save its life.  Plus it is designed to be loose and uses marcelled washers to take up the slack yet allow the lollipop to articulate to make up for misalignment.  

I had the same feelings about cable shifters in my VW days, but that was because VW made garbage shifters and I blamed the sloppiness on the cables instead of on the manufacturer.  I preferred the rod-and-linkage setups on the quattro cars.  I later realized that those linkages were garbage also.  When I built K20 X1/9s for a living, I designed and built a heim jointed shift linkage that felt like you were sticking your hand into the transmission to change the gears; it was every bit as solid and mechanical as a top-mount stick-in-the-trans RWD setup. 

The Group 4 Stratos,  which didn't employ the usual cabin mounted gate, had a mod to the selector mounting plate to prevent the primary finger losing contact with the 3 bellcranks during cross gate selection; basically another plate on the topside

preventing too much selector movement. Maybe a Michelotto part?

In reply to sfm6s :

I've never heard that, very interesting.   

I keep threatening to repalce the bellcranks with a drum and make it a sequential setup but that hasn't made the top of the very long to-do list.

In reply to GasTungstenArc :

Ever Ferrai didn't use u-joints...flat plane V8s like the 308 engine vibrate like a mother so they have a rubber bush in a yoke setup.  Its not much rubber so it doesn't feel like the lollipop but does make holding the shifter at high rpm  tolerable.  Not quite sure why I have a brand new one sitting here, but thius is what they look like.

Ferrari likes to stake things together.  I'm remembering changing these seal during the V8 rebuild then deciding it was too much bother during the V12 work as they were still pretty new....but no doubt got pretty hot with all the welding and that V8 rebuild was 2002 so they are now 20 years old besides.  I'm trying a super secret upgrade a Ferrari tech buddy suggested but going 1 additional step and also switching to viton thinking the headers heat this area up pretty well...hopefully no more oil leaks.

Seals changed and headers painted

In sort of in but I lost momentum...tomorrow's a new day.

That shifter bushing sure looks like a Lotus suspension bush. Post dimensions and I will cross feference it. The Lotus parts are cheap!.

I'll take "sentences never before uttered" for $200, Alex.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Relative term. No F tax

The car work that did get done.   I remember thinking as I was wrapping the headers that I should test fit them because there's not a lot of clearance.....so yeah Sunday I pulled the engine back out after not being able to install the collector pipe

Sitting on the floor I was able to install the pipe...wft?

Engine back in the car and this double wtf

So I decided to do what I do and force it into place

Its my belief (in a no religious way ) that once the headers  heat up they will stress relax and this problem will go away.....at least that is what I'm telling my self and either way the pipe is on.

The motor mounts look good to me 

and there is a solid 1/4 to maybe 3/8  clearance flywheel cover to frame so I'll call that project a win.

In reply to mke :

So I'm curious, how confident are you all that aluminum weld you did in the cylinders is actually going to hold up if and when this thing is ever on the road at full throttle?

:-(

Hope he does not mean the end .Have to see how this turns out -my forecast is that it will run well .

dave215 said:

Hope he does not mean the end .Have to see how this turns out -my forecast is that it will run well .

I hope so as well. They closed comment makes me worried that the thread may not continue here. I truly hope it does cuz I learned quite a bit every time I open this thread up.

This thread ending is unacceptable. So hopefully it isn't!

In reply to mke :

PM sent

Maybe some consideration that mke has significant stress in his personal life currently.

Like everyone following hope to hear the v12 running again :)