FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

frenchyd said:

In reply to mke :

 So Ferrari is lighter than my Jag V12 but heavier than a V8. 

308 Honda swap guy weighed stock the V8 assembly complete at just over 800lbs, that's with everything, AC compressor, mufflers, everything.    His point was he was going to the honda which was like 350 and a huge weight savings.   But the ferrari gets lighter when you work on is and the honda heavier as you beef stuff up and add the turbo and such so his was probably headed just north of 400, and a 308 heads for 650ish, still more power at less weight but not as much.  Bare engine I'm told is something like 400?

I just dug back though, mine is 670lb with everything except the muffler, so close to 700 complete as I remembered.  That is lighter than the original V8 and mine had a blower which added maybe 50lbs.  I'm pretty confident the car is a little lighter now with the V12 by 50-100lbs than before the swap.

Since we are talking about weight, I was just chatting with a guy who's got an fia legal group 4 308 so car with a full cage, right about 300hp,......2100lbs.    I'm not even sure how that's possible, I'll be thrilled if mine ever gets down to 3100lbs 

In reply to Rigante :

You are using a drawy-pad computer thingy or something, right?

Rigante said:

In reply to APEowner :

Hey it's just old skool Photoshop, but I'm a designer, so there's a lot of hours practice over the last 30 years behind a quick sketch like this. there are lots of apps now that don't cost much and allow the same outputs, or there are clones of Photoshop online for free like
https://www.photopea.com/ 

 

loads of youtube guides on how the software works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGzzpX8j3cs

Thanks.  Are you using a drawing tablet as your input device?

In reply to APEowner :

sure, am 18 year old Cintiq tablet, made by wacom, but any tablet will let you do this. 

 

In reply to Rigante :

Thanks.

Rigante said:

In reply to APEowner :

... but any tablet will let you do this. 

I suspect a person with talent could make a nice drawing with just about anything but there is no software or pen set or  anything else that  would allow ME to create a drawing like that 

In reply to mke :

you could if you took my class 

Rigante said:

In reply to mke :

you could if you took my class 

unlikely  

...after 50 some odd years I (mostly) know my limits so I steer clear of  anything that isn't a form follows function welded aluminum fabrication. No drawing, no sheetmetal, no guitar, just welded aluminum and then occasional fiberglass piece to remind me of my limits 

The basement geo system is running now so hopefully back to air ducts that matter.

mke said:

No sense in making new cams with the correct firing order that have the sad little factory lobes

 

I made the billets from 8620, they had to be drilled end to end for oil, a buddy roughed them on a CNC lathe, then Web cam rough ground, heat treated and finish ground to the lobes I selected

The cam noses were designed to hold the 400i timing chain instead of TR belt

 

Hey mke, 

I am working on a custom V10 requiring custom billet cams and I cannot for the life of me find a shop willing to make some. Any way I can get an email from you so I can get in touch and see if you'd be willing to help me with these? 

Thanks!

In reply to BuildItYourself :

You can email me and I'll share anything I can

mark@gemellocattivo.com

I can explain the process but sadly the CNC lathe work was done by a buddy I worked 4 or 5 jobs ago and it was a favor. He did the CNC work on the flywheel too but wouldn't take anything, I finely just left a case of his favorite beer in his car and pretended not to know about it. I do know another guy who might be willing to give it a go but he does NOTHING for free so I never asked him.  

In other news still a stuck in the basement.  The geo need a more finishup time than I realized.....I'd never really finished cleanup from when the car set the basement on fire (the car not me  ) so new foam which seems to take for frikin ever.  Still a little taping/calking left to do, water condenses and drips from any opening in the foam

I had just T'd into the 1st floor geo loop so I had to add a couple relays to let either unit turn  the pump and wasn't getting quite enough flow to the new unit  and I really didn't want to cut the pipes again to add another valve so I beat the pipe feeding the original unit to make it willing to share better.  All good now and ready for new.

Then I've been asked to consult on the colors and furnishings for the space because apparently the only way to really know what you like is for someone to suggest things you know for sure you don't like. 

Spring is nearly here though so I really need to get back to car work....

mke said:

the only way to really know what you like is for someone to suggest things you know for sure you don't like. 

I never know what she wants for her birthday, but every year I add another item to the list of things she didn't want.

Still a bit more shaping needed but it does now go from the air filter to the air box and at least looks like air would flow though it were it hollow

In reply to BuildItYourself :

Try Hart's Machine in Ohio. They rebuild all sorts of strange engines from all over the world  and I seem to remember they will make new camshafts when needed. They do performance rebuilds as well, so a performance camshaft should be in their wheelhouse (camshafts are listed under the services pulldown). 

mke said:

Still a bit more shaping needed but it does now go from the air filter to the air box and at least looks like air would flow though it were it hollow

 

That is super cool! Are you planning on making something out of fiberglass, or...? 
It almost seems like you could use some sheet Kydex for this if the 320 degree 'softening' temperature will work with your engine bay temps. 

In reply to Greg Smith (Forum Supporter) :

Supercool in a "how long can a simple project be drawn out for?" kind of way 

Yes the plan is fiberglass pained black like the OEM parts were.....someday.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

mke said:

the only way to really know what you like is for someone to suggest things you know for sure you don't like. 

I never know what she wants for her birthday, but every year I add another item to the list of things she didn't want.

This is a marital lesson that I learned and made good use of in my job of project management. At the start of every project you have a room full of upper management that wants to know the "plan" and who somehow have not put their ideas forth until now. The trick is to not pitch your actual plan, but toss a steaming pile of crap on the table and let them tell you what they really wanted in the first place.  Then you can move ahead.

NOHOME said:

This is a marital lesson that I learned and made good use of in my job of project management. At the start of every project you have a room full of upper management that wants to know the "plan" and who somehow have not put their ideas forth until now. The trick is to not pitch your actual plan, but toss a steaming pile of crap on the table and let them tell you what they really wanted in the first place.  Then you can move ahead.

I was just explaining a smiliar approach to my team yesterday.  "Don't worry that it's not perfect, the point is to give everyone an opportunity to tell us how we did it wrong."   A subtle variation of this technique is to choose a particular detail (one with an obvious solution perhaps, or not very important) and get that wrong to make the audience feel like they've contributed while not giving them a chance to drive you off the rails.

I am using an AEM infinity 7 ecu loaded with software from EngineLab (who makes the ECUs for AEM) which turns it into a development unit and is why I can do stuff like use 12 MAP sensor to auto sync the ITBs.  A few weeks ago a buddy told me Holley had bought AEM which I didn't really think anything of until last weekend when I saw some AEM ecus for 1/2 price and everything else showing out of stock or unavailable  

I emailed my EngineLab guy and haven't heard back after a week so I'm a little nervous. 

I have my ECU so I guess it doesn't really matter if my worst fears are true...but it would sure make me sad and I'd probably never buy another Holley branded product if they captured and killed these ECUs   

Still up to my eyeballs in house work but now my older son is 16 and asking how he can help get the car on the road, which gets me at least some shop time....while I ponder how to reprogram the ECU to add a safe mode.  I'm leaning toward an acceleration limiter so its fun but doesn't launch in frightening ways, that seems better than a throttle limiter or silimar.....still thinking though.

But with help I now have 1 air duct about done (other than sand and paint which will wait unit I can do a final fit-up with everything)

It really didn't go to plan honestly....the spray foam meant no dissolving out the plug and getting the foam smooth meant adding so drywall mud and some paint (I used latex primer).

Then 3 coats of carnauba based was to try to get it to release, but yeah, I had to dig the foam out.

That all let the green foam MOSTLY survived the polyester resin

and the pressure washer was able to quickly remove what was left

leaving a fine looking interior

Then feather the cut edges and tape it back together with screws to keep the saw gap

1" strips of glass on the open areas

Then when that hardened, off with the tape, feather out the new glass, more 1" in the gasps and 1.5in over everything and its and air duct.

again not exactly the original plan, but alls well that ends well.  

Just went to the shop to grab some tools for the house project and found these parts shaping up, I'm curious to see what he turns this into...he clearly REALLY wants it running

I was just pointed to this video of a 2V 308 with ITBs on the dyno.  Its a bit long with a lot of talking but they saw a 10% hp loss with the stock airbox.  I'm petty sure I'll have a similar issue. 

Some of the talking was them complaining about the MAP signal and how little they had to work with.....they need a multiMAP 

In reply to mke :

I was watching that the other day and wondering how a v12 with such a small chamber would fare... Wonder if it's the size, or how close the top lid is to the trumpets?

mke said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to mke :

 So Ferrari is lighter than my Jag V12 but heavier than a V8. 

308 Honda swap guy weighed stock the V8 assembly complete at just over 800lbs, that's with everything, AC compressor, mufflers, everything.    His point was he was going to the honda which was like 350 and a huge weight savings.   But the ferrari gets lighter when you work on is and the honda heavier as you beef stuff up and add the turbo and such so his was probably headed just north of 400, and a 308 heads for 650ish, still more power at less weight but not as much.  Bare engine I'm told is something like 400?

I just dug back though, mine is 670lb with everything except the muffler, so close to 700 complete as I remembered.  That is lighter than the original V8 and mine had a blower which added maybe 50lbs.  I'm pretty confident the car is a little lighter now with the V12 by 50-100lbs than before the swap.

Since we are talking about weight, I was just chatting with a guy who's got an fia legal group 4 308 so car with a full cage, right about 300hp,......2100lbs.    I'm not even sure how that's possible, I'll be thrilled if mine ever gets down to 3100lbs 

 

 

A nugget stuck in the back of my mind says that the Group 4 cars are fiberglass bodied, and the frames were built fairly flimsy and weak because they were intended to be just good enough when a roll cage was fitted.

In reply to Parker with too many Projects :

Both I guess.  The faster the air is moving the more energy is lost turning or passing obstacles so air filters and ducting generally can't be too big. 

With 4 cylinders or less you can tune the airbox and I had given a lot of thought into dividing mine up in to quadrands but decided for space and with my expected filter flow issues letting all the cylinder see both filters was probably better.

There were some oddities in that video too.  They said it was peaking at 6200, which I've never seen before...the US 76-77 and euro 76-79 peak right around 7500, the later US 78-82 and euro 80-82 at about 6800 as they got milder cams.  6200 means something is wrong.  Then they showed the 10% across the board hp gain with the airbox open....which is odd because that kind of thing usually has little impact at low rpm and tends to cause the engine to peak then flat line as it hits the flow limit, so that was weird.  Then they talked about a trigger issue causing issues at high rpm but it wasn't clear when they identified and fixed it making me wonder if the trigger issue wasn't perhaps responsible for a big chunk of the "no airbox" gain.

Sadly it will probably be spring before I'm thinking about dynos and finding out how my airbox works 

Pete. (l33t FS) said: A nugget stuck in the back of my mind says that the Group 4 cars are fiberglass bodied, and the frames were built fairly flimsy and weak because they were intended to be just good enough when a roll cage was fitted.

Yes, fiberglass body.  Most 76 and a few 77 308s have fiberglass bodies and the original races cars were based on those, so to be homologated I'm pretty sure the body must be fiberglass and for sure that blue car is fiberglass.

I keep thinking I'll make a fiberglass or carbon rear deck lid to make my life easier as its about 70lbs and a bugger to put on/off but it just has never made the top of the to-do list.