1 2
poorchoices
poorchoices
5/26/21 6:28 p.m.

Yes, I bought the GRM Lemons / Champ / Cursed VW Fox

Plans are to do the North East 24 Hours of Lemons events starting mid season in 2021, as well as other team based long format races the car is eligible to run in. I have a number of friends who either want to get into or have already been involved in compedititve motorsports, and I figure making a car available to them to spend the weekend wrenching while watching others people race is an honest way to get started.

Stampie
Stampie MegaDork
5/26/21 6:37 p.m.

Always loved the Fox body. 

Sonic
Sonic UltraDork
5/26/21 7:15 p.m.

I'm so sorry.  I've known this car when the original builder suffered with it for years, and when he had to drive our car for some races as his car was broken.  

 

I hope you have better luck!  See you at (or on) the track!

 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/26/21 7:56 p.m.

I'm jelly. That car cover is literally one of one.

2_3
2_3 New Reader
5/26/21 8:12 p.m.

Any plans to add more wings? There is free space on the roof

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/27/21 6:46 a.m.

Has it made you bleed yet? I hit my head on the wing every time I'm in a trailer with that car. 

Honsch
Honsch Reader
5/27/21 4:14 p.m.

We (The Flying Lumberjacks) have been racing a Fox for over a decade.

When despair fully sets in maybe we can help. 

preach (fs)
preach (fs) HalfDork
5/27/21 4:22 p.m.

Sweet! Will you be at Thompson, CT or NH?

poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
5/27/21 8:21 p.m.

Sonic, I am aware of the tarnished history but I hope to turn that around from lessons learned. 

Tom, yes its injured me a few times. I pulled the front wing as my kids insisted on riding bikes next to it and I didnt feel like brining them to the emergency room to get sewed back together. 

Honsch, ill deffinetly be in touch. 

preach, ideally both CT and NHMS

 

So ill forgo the whole 'this is the car' as its history is pretty well documented here on GRM and dive in where we started. First up I was told it didnt run, and we quicly realized it did turn over once we tracked down a bad ground. It fired right up but did sound not well. 

Not sure if youtube embeds but here is the video of its only time running in my posession https://youtu.be/Mr81fDi4QSs

This pretty much summed up what we expected as Tom had in the add for the car it was blown up.

First week I convinced various denominations of children and my wife to help pull the motor to see if we could some or any of it.

Quickly found something going on in the transmission. Looks like the clutch and / or flywheel was machining away at the bellhousing. Also found a number of spring straps (?) that hold the friction ring to the clutch broken and looks like all the flywheel bolts backed out.

Again not sure if these embed but a video of the flywheel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWAYl-j9_Jw

 

 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/28/21 7:22 a.m.

That's... Exciting. surprise

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/28/21 7:24 a.m.

And I apologize in advance for all the extra RTV on the oil pan. Just remembered that when I saw the frowny face photo. We used most of a tube as a joke for YouTube, then ended up cutting the footage due to time constraints. 

TR7 (Forum Supporter)
TR7 (Forum Supporter) Reader
5/28/21 10:56 a.m.

In reply to poorchoices :

We had the same problem with the FW/PP hitting the bellhousing in our ABA/020 golf. We had 2 new sets, same manufacturer and part#, after we destroyed the first set (oil leak, burned it up during a race), the second one we got wouldnt clear. Couldnt figured out why, as all the parts seemed to measure the same, but we had a box of 4 or 5 sets of spares and just swapped on a combination that didnt hit...

Honsch
Honsch Reader
5/28/21 2:47 p.m.

OK, so you've pulled the motor.

The easy button is an 2.slow ABA, a big cam from Techtonics Tuning, and a Motronic 2.9 ECU and wiring harness from an OBD1 Jetta.  I'd also suggest porting the head a little and shaving it a lot.

Cleaning up the engine bay is time well spent.

As for transmissions, the stock four speed is terrible for racing.  You want a 2P but they're practically non-existent now.  There might be a dozen left in North America.  We swapped to an 012 transmission from a B5 Passat/A4, but it requires a bunch of modification and fabrication to make work. 

For brakes we ditched the rear drums and put later Jetta front and rear discs on and re-plumbed it to be a front/rear split with a Wilwood proportioning valve.  To put the larger discs on the front you need Scirocco 16V caliper brackets.

I sent you a DM with my email.  Our team has a facebook page that I don't participate in but has various obnoxious posts from terrible teammates and worse team friends.  We also have a youtoube channel for all our racing videos.

Welcome to the club.  I'm sorry in advance.

 

 

 

poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
6/6/21 6:59 a.m.
Tom Suddard said:

And I apologize in advance for all the extra RTV on the oil pan. Just remembered that when I saw the frowny face photo. We used most of a tube as a joke for YouTube, then ended up cutting the footage due to time constraints. 

 I can attest to the amazing amount of RVT,  nothing a wirewheel and 10min didn't clean up. However I do think my kids learned some new words while they were trying to remove the oil pan.  Its all good though. 

poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
6/6/21 7:02 a.m.
TR7 (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to poorchoices :

We had the same problem with the FW/PP hitting the bellhousing in our ABA/020 golf. We had 2 new sets, same manufacturer and part#, after we destroyed the first set (oil leak, burned it up during a race), the second one we got wouldnt clear. Couldnt figured out why, as all the parts seemed to measure the same, but we had a box of 4 or 5 sets of spares and just swapped on a combination that didnt hit...

Im not sure this flywheel was always hitting the bellhousing. When cranking the car over I didnt hear anything metalic, however once running something metal was clearly hitting something else. Some mild digging into the engine never exposed a spun bearing or anything else that would cause that kind of noise. 

poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
6/6/21 7:28 a.m.
Honsch said:

...

While your engine choice makes a lot of sense, I have to complicate this to some extent so were going a little farther than a ABA. Also I did get your email and replied, if you didn't see it let me know, I will accept all the directional assistance I can get as im diving into a platform that I and everyone I know is unfamiliar with. 

 

Friend had a car 'he was going to fix' however once the fox showed up he offered up the 16v which  we freed a couple of weeks ago. Also I had a project that fell apart going on 7 years ago however some of the parts I collected for it are still hanging around. One of them conveniently is a DVZ from 2002 Passat which I have seen Honsch suggest a few times throughout GRM's ownership of the car.

 

Dvz vz the liberated 4speed. Its definitely bigger, but not so much bigger that a lot of hammering to make room shouldn't do the trick. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
6/6/21 7:30 a.m.
poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
6/6/21 7:44 a.m.

Keeping the kids busy, I had them help me break down the 8v that came out of the Fox. 3 Center mains and all 4 rod big ends were fine. The bearings are all tired but none spun. Top end looked fine, little dirty but not 'I sound like a bag of rocks' dirty. We also realized the crank pully was loose and the keyway was blown off of it. Im not sure what broke on this motor first, but a number of external parts all seemed to let go. Some good news however it looks like we can strip and save a number of the core parts I don't need for the Fox and keep aside as spares for a friends MkII Rallycar. 

poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
6/6/21 8:04 a.m.

Now lastly, Yesterday we (the team that has formed around this car) cleaned up the 16v as much as we could and swapped the Fox engine mounts, oil pedestal and remote adapter, and oil pan (AND PICKUP, after a 40min drive to go get it because I forgot it)

We are going to ditch the CIS setup and do something else, not 100% sure on that front yet, but we have 9 weeks to make it happen.

Day ended on a rather crappy note as I bought the wrong flywheel. I didn't realize (read: didn't even look) that v6 and 4cyl  flywheels are different and a bought a v6 clutch and flywheel that fits the DVZ. v6 engines are an 8bolt pattern with a very different pilot bearing setup where the pilot is part of the flywheel instead of the crank like it is on 4cyl's which also use 6 bolts to attach the flywheel.

It would take a bunch of welding and machining to make work which I don't really want to do on a flywheel, also it weights like 30lbs with the clutch which to me seems a bit heavy and im hoping the 4cyl unit is lighter. 

Missed the day goal of getting the engine and trans into the car, however once the new flywheel and clutch show up that will be the focus. 

I was covered in MkII grim all day so never managed a photo sadly, just imagine the look of defeat on someones face, sums up the day. 

poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
6/6/21 8:10 a.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Don't forget to grab the Techtonics cam and chip from the Fox!

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1993-volkswagen-fox/project-vw-fox-making-power-daytonas-high-banks/

Whole head is shelved as a spare, I haven't got to snagging the chip but it will also be saved for the rally car.

poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
6/20/21 7:05 a.m.

All new clutch, flywheel, and pilot bearing installed after an extra week of waiting as ordering the correct parts doesn't seem to be my strong suite. Fortunately the original clutch and flywheel was accepted as a return without issue and they had a correct one in stock which I had 3 days after realizing what we had wouldn't work. 

Being we have a lift at our disposal for this, we opted to mate the trans and engine and bolt them to the front sub-frame allowing us to figure out where to clearance. We could then lift the car back off, roll the whole assembly out of the way and hammer away. 

I don't know if I got lucky swinging the hammer or what, however we only had to pull the engine and trans out once to make room. Second time in everything fit. Took some prying to get the sub-frame to line back up but with a lift from a fork truck we got it in position and now its all bolted in. 

If everything goes well we will load it back up today and tow it back to my shop so I can keep working on it mid week in the evening.  Transmission to body mount, shift linkage and figuring out the axles are next on the list. 

tester (Forum Supporter)
tester (Forum Supporter) Reader
6/20/21 7:31 a.m.

If possible, get it registered and run it on the street as much as possible before you race it. It increased the reliability of our Lemon immeasurably.  

poorchoices
poorchoices New Reader
7/11/21 7:49 p.m.

Last couple weeks have been two steps forward, then three steps backwards, then a couple steps forwards again

Got the car home, clearanced the motor mount to make room for the starter, went to test it and while the starter 'works' the engine wouldn't turn over. Threw a ratchet on the crank and it was locked up solid. This is new as we checked the motor spun after we mounted the clutch and flywheel the 2nd time, as we realized the first time that the flywheel was dragging on the dust shield. 

Motor came back out, spun over fine by hand, spent 30min trying to figure out what was hitting and it turns out the v6 trans I have still had the crank angle sensor mounted in it which is in the trans bell housing and it was hitting the 4cyl flywheel.  Great news as its an easy fix, however we spent 2 hours trying to get the motor and trans mated again and couldn't ever get it done.  

While waiting to get to a lift we did some more simplifying on the engine as everything is easy to get to, block off plates, converting to more traditional fuel injection etc.

 

Also machined a test axle adapter with the hopes of being able to mate the fox axles to the dvz trans without having to modify the axles. 

 

In an effort to keep momentum going, today I tried (again) at setting the engine with trans into the car using just a hoist. I ended up notching the radiator support which ill end up making a re-installable piece later which gave enough room to get the engine in and out without the need for a lift.

Ill end up making the removable section a little nicer when I get caught up, today it was just cut the minimum required to get the oil pan past the support.

Honsch
Honsch Reader
7/11/21 9:58 p.m.

Poorchoices,

I did get the email.

Good progress!
I don't think the axle adapters will work for both sides.  The 012 transmission is wider and offset t the flanges.  One side might work.  One very nice thing with swapping to an 012 is you can put a Quaife diff in if you machine the diff cover for the correct bearing.  We use a Passat stock clutch cover plate and friction disk on an ebay light flywheel.  The flywheel needed spacers to get the cover plate at the right offset from the friction surface.  The friction disk that came with the light flywheel shattered after about 90 minutes of racing.  The Valeo OEM one is doing fine so far.

Our radiatior support is totally removable, but then again our rad is in the trunk so it's mainly there to hold the hood, intercooler, and headlights.

A 16V isn't much gain over a ported and big cam 8V.  Fewer moving parts are fewer problems.  We dynoed 140HP/145TQ to the wheels on a good NA 8V build, on a Mustang dyno.  What we found works better is about 10psi of boost. :-)

If you were into poor choices I do believe a W8 bolts to that transmission, pretty much every Audi engine does.

We ended up going with a Speeduino (UA4C version) for the ECU.  It's doing OK.

I'm available for inspiring bad choices or mutual commiseration.

 

 

Honsch
Honsch Reader
7/11/21 10:29 p.m.

As a follow up, I compiled a list of axles from Trakmotive with compressed length and end style.
I couldn't find one that could be used without modifications, but here's the data since I can't attach a spreadsheet.

Part,Spline count,Compressed Len,Inner size,Notes,,vw-8035,Fox original,,,,
vw-8009,22,20  3/4 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8018,22,21  1/4 ,94,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8003,22,21  1/2 ,,,,,,,,,
vw-8014,22,21 11/16,99.7,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8016,22,22      ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8047,22,22 25/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8034,22,23  1/32,96,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8064,22,23  1/16,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8049,22,23  5/8 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8035,22,23  7/8 ,94,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8041,22,24 17/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8037,22,24 21/32,94,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8048,22,25 15/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8036,22,26 15/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8046,22,26 15/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8033,22,26 13/16,94,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8063,22,26 13/16,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8038,22,27  7/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8007,22,29  3/8 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8041,22,29  5/8 ,94,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8010,22,30  1/8 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8019,22,30  3/8 ,94,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8002,22,30  5/8 ,,,,,,,,,
vw-8015,22,31  1/4 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8025,26,25  7/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8032,26,25  1/4 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8055,26,26  1/8 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8016,26,27  3/32,,Nut type,,,,,,,
ad-8050,26,27  9/25,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8026,26,27  3/8 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8059,26,28      ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8118,28,27  1/8 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8138,30,20 11/16,112,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8139,30,20 23/32,112,round flange,,,,,,,
VW-8104,30,28 15/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8110,30,28 15/16,116,round flange,,,,,,,
AD-8012,33,19  4/5 ,,Weird picture,,,,,,,
ad-8075,33,20 15/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
AD-8011,33,20  3/4 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8043,33,21      ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8073,33,24.25 or 22 1/4,,,**,Audi 90,1990-1995,"Front, right, Quattro",,,
ad-8077,33,22 17/32,108,round flange,,Audi 80,1988-1990,"Front, Right, 2.3l",,,
ad-8056,33,22 31/32,108,round flange,***,Audi 80,1992-1992,"Manual trnas, base model, left & right",Audi 90,1988-1991,"Manual trans, 2.3 SOHC. Left & right"
ad-8076,33,23  1/32,108,round flange,***,Audi 80,1988-1990,"Front left, 2.3l",Audi 90,1988-1989,"Front, Left, Quattro"
ad-8145,33,23  5/16,108,round flange,*** Splines might be 38,Audi S4,2000-2003,"Rear, left & right, manual trans",,,
AD-8118,33,23  7/16,100,round flange,****,,,,,,
vw-8072,33,23 15/32,,,***,,,,,,
ad-8023,33,24  1/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8050,33,24  3/8 ,,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8042,33,24 17/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8074,33,24 23/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8022,33,24 29/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8080,33,25  3/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8052,33,26      ,108,round flange,nut hub side,,,,,,
vw-8134,36,18  7/8 ,,,,,,,,,
Vw 8088,36,18 29/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8098,36,19      ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8791,36,19  3/50,,,,,,,,,
ad-8126,36,19  1/5 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8133,36,19  7/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8147,36,19  5/8 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8095,36,19 11/16,,,,,,,,,
vw-8114,36,19  3/4 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8069,36,20  5/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8051,36,20  9/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8138,36,20  9/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8089,36,20  7/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8086,36,20  1/2 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8109,36,20 13/16,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8057,36,21  1/4 ,,,,,,,,,
vw-8037,36,21 17/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8001,36,21 13/16,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8756,36,21  7/8 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8017,36,22      ,,round flange nut,,,,,,,
vw-8132,36,23 23/59,,,,,,,,,
ad-8136,36,23 11/16,,,,,,,,,
ad-8148,36,23  3/4 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8143,36,24  3/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8130,36,24  4/5 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8090,36,25 21/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8089,36,29 19/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8723,36,29 18/25,,,,,,,,,
vw-8127,36,29 21/25,,,,,,,,,
vw-8099,36,30  5/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8124,36,30 13/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8093,36,30 15/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8131,36,30 81/89,,,,,,,,,
ad-8128,36,30 15/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8070,36,31  9/50,,,,,,,,,
vw-8004,36,31  1/4 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8120,36,31  1/4 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8739,36,31  3/10,,,,,,,,,
ad-8127,36,31  5/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8122,36,31  1/2 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8094,36,31 11/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8112,36,31 13/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8058,36,31  7/8 ,,,,,,,,,
vw-8033,36,31 31/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8053,36,32      ,,,,,,,,,
vw-8087,36,32  1/16,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8108,36,32 11/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8032,36,32 15/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8100,36,32 43/64,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8769,36,34 18/25,,,,,,,,,
ad-8133,38,18  3/16,,,,,,,,,
ad-8019,38,18 19/32,,,,,,,,,
AD 8112,38,18 27/32,,,,,,,,,
AD-8100,38,19  1/4 ,,,,,,,,,
AD-8108,38,19  9/16,,,,,,,,,
ad-8006,38,19  3/4 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8069,38,19  3/4 ,,,,,,,,,
AD-8098,38,19  3/4 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8140,38,20      ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8018,38,20  7/16,,,,,,,,,
AD-8099,38,20  1/2 ,,,,,,,,,
AD-8009,38,20 19/32,,,,,,,,,
ad-8135,38,20 21/32,,,,,,,,,
vw-8054,38,20 11/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
AD-8096,38,20 23/32,,,,,,,,,
AD-8097,38,20 25/32,,,,,,,,,
A8-8007,38,20  7/8 ,,,,,,,,,
AD-8107,38,21  1/32,,,,,,,,,
AD 8111,38,21  1/4 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8130,38,21  3/8 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8134,38,21 23/32,,,,,,,,,
ad-8031,38,21  3/4 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8065,38,21 31/32,,,,,,,,,
ad-8086,38,22      ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8129,38,22      ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8021,38,22  5/32,,,,,,,,,
ad-8066,38,22  3/8 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8141,38,22 11/16,,,,,,,,,
ad-8073,38,22 23/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
AD-8105,38,23  5/16,,,Audi A4,"2006-2008, 2.0l, manual trans, front, left, quattro",,,,,
AD-8059,38,23  5/8 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8003,38,23 11/16,,,,,,,,,
ad-8093,38,23  3/4 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
AD-8109,38,23 25/32,,,,,,,,,
AD-8103,38,23 27/32,,,,,,,,,
ad-8131,38,24  1/8 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8071,38,24  7/32,,,,,,,,,
ad-8061,38,24  1/4 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8088,38,24  1/4 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8095,38,24  1/4 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8144,38,24  1/4 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
AD-8106,38,24  9/32,,,,,,,,,
ad-8094,38,24  7/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
AD-8110,38,24  9/16,,,,,,,,,
ad-8004,38,24  5/8 ,,,,,,,,,
ad-8083,38,24 21/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
AD-8104,38,24 21/32,,,,,,,,,
AD-8058,38,25  1/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8087,38,25  1/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8062,38,25  1/8 ,100,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8091,38,25  5/16,,,,,,,,,
AD-8115,38,25  5/16,,,,,,,,,
ad-8070,38,25  9/16,,,,,,,,,
AD-8114,38,25  7/8 ,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8082,38,26  5/32,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8072,38,29  9/32,100,round flange,,,,,,,
vw-8055,39,20  7/16,108,round flange,,,,,,,
ad-8146,42,18  5/32,,,,,,,,,
Part,Spline count,Compressed Len,Inner size,Notes,,vw-8035,Fox original,,,,

 

1 2
Our Preferred Partners
vw7Sj6BbygaHyk0bSKdpxDeqUbVsB3XqhItLMiX4iGLnkZ5wgYiefoiprt0Ijr0Y