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jh36
jh36 Reader
12/28/18 3:33 p.m.

jh36
jh36 Reader
12/28/18 3:49 p.m.

I thankfully didn’t do anything to create a major winter project this year...so the relatively manageable prep list includes

better seat position

better wink mirror locations

mods to make faster transaxle swaps

hood vents

better hood pin mounts

mounting data acquisition 

 

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/9/19 8:43 p.m.

So....I have this fairly straight, clean 944 with sunroof delete. It has a blown engine and sits uselessly next to my shop wrapped in a plastic blanket  

I have a 931 bellhousing, the magic Audi spacer and an intake, thanks to Stefan. 

I have Ed and my Porsche restoring son James living in dangerously close proximity to me.  

So tonight we start talking about the next race car to build, and Ed logically revived the AAN or 7a swap notion.  

Why not?

My ultimate goal would be to make 300-350 rwhp and run at about 8:1 p/w ratio, wheel to wheel racing. 

Stefan, you’re the guru. 

Should we get an AAN complete turbo or build up a 7a?

It’s time to get the party restarted. 

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/9/19 11:39 p.m.

Awesome!  I’m glad those parts will get some use!

i was planning on building a 10v block with a 20v head and various bits to make it all work for expediency and relative expense.  If you can find a AAN or even a 3b (the Porsche tuned one), that’s a lot less work you have to do.

Luckily a fellow 924 guy here in the area converted their 924 Turbo ChumpCar to Audi 20VT via an AAN.

They needed to modify an oil pan to fit around the crossmember,  (which was welded in place and sectioned so the center section could be dropped) extended the throttle body forward to clear various bits of the engine bay and I think they welded the spacer to the bellhousing to keep it all aligned when assembling it.  They were running microsquirt on the 2.0L, but they went to the factory AAN ECU that was tuned by an Audi tech for them.

Theres also a fellow I raced with in ChumpCar in the area who is having a shop build a RallyCross 944 with an Audi AAN.  They are using a brand new 944 chassis for the build.  It’s slick!  They’ve converted to a RHD MK1 Golf rack with a Quaiffe quicker steering gear and an electronic steering column from a Cobalt/Saturn, etc.  the engine swap is pretty similar.

Both builds are on Facebook, I’ll see if I can nab some links and pics tomorrow.

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/10/19 5:18 a.m.

In reply to Stefan :

I would love to see how your guys have approached this...links greatly appreciated!

Turns out there is an outfit parting out all generations of Audi about 5 hours from us.  Shokan Audi...they have been around for a while and they show current inventory that fits the bill.  Inquiries have been made.  

Looking at what racing classes are best attended locally, ST3 looks like a good target, which is a 10:1 p/w ratio.  With a careful 944 build , that is getting close to baseline turbo numbers (230?) so I wouldn’t have to make crazy power out of the gate to be competitive.  2500lbs is not too difficult and with lexan and a little FB, 2400 is reasonable.  The faster combination is likely higher hp with ballast, but I’m thinking we have a lot of bandwidth and options....nice.

 

 

 

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/10/19 10:37 a.m.

Here's a hashtag link for the Project945Rally build:

https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/projectporsche945rally?source=feed_text&epa=HASHTAG

and the other Hashtag, project945rally‬ (yes Facebook is case sensitive):

https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/project945rally?source=feed_text&epa=HASHTAG

BTW, Dave works for Alex Job Racing, so there's some depth of knowledge and skills there.

Ed Higginbotham
Ed Higginbotham UberDork
1/10/19 11:09 a.m.

That intake is incredible!

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/10/19 5:24 p.m.

This is amazing.  Really a work of art.  And I'm not sure right now if it is motivating me or if it intimidating me to no end.  For now, I'm going to say it motivates me.

That is some really amazing work. 

I'm intrigued by the theory of the intake plenum being the same displacement as the engine...what?  I would have thought a good old K&N cone filter in a cold air box would be the ticket....hmmmm.  Much to learn.

 

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/10/19 5:34 p.m.

Yeah, its a bit of an intense build, but it is also a Rally car, so there's a certain amount of over-building involved in some areas.

Needless to say, you wouldn't need to copy all of their bits, but one note from the other build (which is a secret group, so I can't link to it) is that using a different valve cover allows for a little more room under the stock hood without resorting to solid engine mounts.

A cheap 7A steel oil pan is easier to modify and available new from Rockauto (last I checked) rather than trying to weld oily cast aluminum.

Ditching power brakes could allow for easier throttle body positioning.

7A cams can help with different power curves, etc.

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/10/19 9:28 p.m.

In reply to Stefan :

Gotcha....this would be the most ambitious (automotive)  project of my life, but i am liking the thought of the challenge. As long as Ed and James are along for the ride!  

think I would simplify the intake...and the way the exhaust routes for the turbo....I wonder if that could be boxed into the passenger footwell and the exhaust routed more or less conventionally. This will be a race-only-car, so I don’t have to worry about a lot of niceties. Also, this would be a car I hang onto so i can reconfigure if we don’t like v1. 

Hope to speak with the engine guy tomorrow and see if a deal can be made.

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/10/19 10:47 p.m.

Ive added you to the group, so feel free to check out pics, and ask questions.

Britain Smith added an extension of sorts to the stock manifold to mount the turbo between the front of the engine and the nose.  Made the routing of the intercooler piping and the exhaust easier since he could integrate the wastegate into the extension, etc.

They used the aluminum pan as well and modified it, certainly looks nice, but I think I’d go steel.

They use a 951 intercooler in the nose (which is now removable)

There’s another person there who built a 20VT powered 924 (Magnus) in Sweden I believe.

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/11/19 8:17 p.m.

In reply to Stefan :

I just spent a couple of hours in a time warp going through Britain’s project. Holy cow.  That is impressive and informative. I will spend some time absorbing before I start asking questions.  Really appreciate the invite. The last two days got super busy so I wasn’t able to speak to the folks with the I5...next week!

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/11/19 11:50 p.m.

Yeah, Britain is a pretty impressive dude.

He has a turbo Subaru powered 914 that he grafted Elise suspension under that he used to autocross before he got heavily involved in the ChumpCar (which they won the Chumpionship a year or two ago in Vegas).

He used to run a site called Where2Race.com that was pretty cool for figuring out where and when events are in your area.

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/13/19 8:44 a.m.

Ok....so the tube loop front is amazing. Access to the front with a few disconnects is enticing.  Added to that I’m thinking of a one piece FG front and it gets pretty simple. At least, less complicated.  I have never liked the sheet metal radiator brackets on 944’s, so that looks tasty to me   

It looks like this is allowed in the rules...maybe with a penalty, but I doubt it. When I’m a bit further along in the design/scope, I will start asking questions of the sanctioning body. 

Looking at the oil pan, I’m wondering dry sump. I not sure how far the crank drops below the horizontal on the block, but that might simplify the situation around the crossmember. I’ve never done a dry sump before so that might be fun also. 

Turbo location...looks like the collector forward and exhaust loop back is the preferred method.  I was wondering about boxing it in the footwell but Ed warns of lag due to the run to the MAF.  I’d like to keep the engine bay as clear as possible but maybe my idea is a bad one. 

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/14/19 12:32 p.m.

In reply to jh36 :

I don't believe they run a MAF on the Audi engines, it uses a MAP-based solution.  With modern turbo designs (more aero-efficient, lighter and with ball bearing center sections) lag should be less of a concern.

The removable front end is really quite impressive and certainly solves a lof of problems with maintenance and also issues with W2W racing where things can go wrong quickly, so quick access and easy repair (one of the reasons tube chassis are preferred over stock unibodies in many series).

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/14/19 8:43 p.m.

So much to learn.  Makes life interesting.  I feel like i can put myself in a "point of no return" situation by scoring a power plant.

I spoke with the folks in NY at Shokan Audi. They were very polite and did their best to help. They have a 20V Turbo 2.2.  Long block, no turbo, no intake...$1800.  Turbo is 300 more.  I need to do some more research to know that i even want the original turbo.  All comments, advise and warnings are greatly appreciated.

They ran the car into the shop before dismantling but don't have compression figures.  Their test evidently consists of knowing it pulled well, and they ran it up to operating temps.  I'm still hunting for a better option, closer to home, but this might be the way to go in the end.  If I drag one more car/parts car on this property, it could be trouble.  Our total household number has crested 20 according to those keeping count of such things.

Also, for whatever reason, the 80's Audi never was a big deal around here.  I had a friend with a 4000 quattro in the mid 80's and that was one of the very few I remember seeing.  It seems like there are more options the further west you go.

 

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/15/19 11:26 a.m.

Annoyingly, the 5-cylinder engines didn't last all that long here due to the issues around the "unintended acceleration" nonsense that really hurt Audi's fortunes in the US.  So they were often bought by people who wanted something oddly European, but not a FWD SAAB or a "pedestrian" Mercedes or BMW :)

So many are either older, cheaper models from before that period, or newer models with mostly the V6, 1.8/2.0t and the more rare models that had the 20Vt, V6tt or V8.

This is why I was thinking of putting one together from an older 2.3L 10V block and a 20V head as those were slightly easier to find.  It just meant the learning curve and time investment would be much higher than just buying a running engine.  Plus, a little more displacement over the 2.2L (one could find a 2.5L Diesel crank overseas and use that to build a stroker 20Vt, but that's a lot more work).

As to the engine you found, it sounds like a great starting point.  I would try to get the ECU and related engine side wiring with it so that you can more easily graft it into the 944 as you won't want to use the 944's EFI solution on a 5-cylinder.  I believe Britain and co had their harness/ECU shipped off somewhere to have it cleaned up/paired down and the ECU reprogrammed for their use.

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/16/19 4:54 a.m.

Thanks for the opinion Stefan.  I will post when I take the plunge. In conversation, the seller said the harness and ecu were not available (sold), so unfortunately, that will have to be sourced separately, or dive into the mysterious world of megasquirt for a solution...which I also know little about.  I enjoy having a clean engine compartment though,so if that is possible, I’m interested.  Which, by the way, is another reason I am toying with the turbo location in a compartment in the passenger footwell. This is going to be an interesting process...thanks for turning me on to the concept and enabling me with parts!

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
1/16/19 11:28 a.m.

Britain and Co ran Microsquirt on their 2.0L 4-cylinder, but went with the Audi ECU on the swap as it is sequential injection and while not quite as easy to tune themselves, it is tunable via laptop with the proper mods.

Compared to the CIS-equipped 924 Turbo engine bay, their current engine bay is quite tidy, but I understand where you're coming from with the turbo location (the 924 Turbo Porsche ran at Le Mans located the turbo where the 944 Turbo does, so turbos mounted downstream a bit further can work).

jh36
jh36 Reader
1/16/19 11:52 a.m.

His engine bay is actually incredible...it's a work of art.  The easiest/best thing to do is probably mimic what Britain did with routings and locations.  I think I just need to accumulate some bits and pieces and see where it all lands.  One thing for sure, I am going to use the "quick disconnect" front clip.  That was genius.

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