Obioban's Long Term e46 M3 build

mr2s2000elise said:

BBS on wagon looks good

Hard to beat the BBS RG-R on an e46 era car, IMO! They're 8000 ton forged, light, strong, and look OEish (BBS made the CSL wheels, and basically just reused the spoke design from the RG-R). Plus, they don't hold their resale value, so you can pick them up used for dir cheap! 

SteelGreyMsaid:

In reply to Obioban:

THANK YOU SO MUCH. Im not sure if I ever check for a 2nd email. I always thought there was only 1 verification email not 2. God im dumb :P

Thanks so much for all the other useful info. Have you personally felt those solid subframebushings before? People give em pretty good reviews. Just don't want to mess up because if I were to replace it I would have to drop the subframe at home on jack stands which is never fun.

After doing some more research looks like I will be going with those CMP subframebushings, turner reinforcmentkit (my shop is used to it. Other wise I would go redish), TMS rear lower control arm with OEM rubber bushings, OEM rubber on upper control arm bushings, powerflexblack RTAB, and rubber diff bushings. I think thatsall. I will definetly update you on ride quality afterwards however keep in mind that I also will have poly RTAB.

Do you have a problem with TMS solid bushings or are the added changes to these better? 

Once again thanks for your patience and help with all my questions!

AFAIK, only the CMPs and OE BMW Motorsport raise the subframe-- so I'd use them over the others. (the motorsport ones don't work with the factory street car bracing, as they were designed for caged cars). 

I'd go with monoballRTABsover poly. And OE dif mounts (which, yes, requires you to buy the entire rear heat sink). 

In reply to Obioban :

I asked around on m3f and apparently you can use e36 m3 rear diff bushings! Confirmed by multiple (trustworthy) people! So im gonna give that a shot.

Also, im retuning my powerflex black poly RTAB in exchange for CMP's spherical ones. Everyone on the forum and you suggested I go that route.

SteelGreyM said:

In reply to Obioban :

I asked around on m3f and apparently you can use e36 m3 rear diff bushings! Confirmed by multiple (trustworthy) people! So im gonna give that a shot.

You can, but they’re worse (softer but no NHV benefit in exchange).

Started pulling the wagon apart for winter projects today. Projects include, but are not limited to...
Rod bearings 
New oil pan drain bolt solution (stripped, was previously helicoliled) 
Euro headers/cats/tune
Nix the secondary air pump
New cooling system 
Belts/tensioners/idlers 
Head gasket, deck the head slightly 
Updated Beisan chain guide (I have the beta version, which was a different material than the final)
Valve guides/seals (new stock) 
All fluids
Valve adjustment 

Nothing is failed, other than elevated lead in my oil. Mostly just doing a 200,000 mile refresh.

... the pile of parts is not small.

I have been looking into nav units for my car. Avin 3 tops the list. I currently have the BMW Business CD and im just sick of having cables for aux and ruining the interior look. Looking at my trunk liner I only see an empty flap. I have HK speakers but no items in the back. This means I don't have to mess with the wiring project you did right? Please say yes. That job looked like a major headache :(

If you're looking for weight reduction ideas Here's one of my ideas but im not sure how effective it is. Perhaps "shaving" the carpet foam off would cut some weight. Not talking about removing it all but maybe half to 3/4 of the total thickness. I wouldn't do the drivers area as the floor isnt flat and if you mess up really don't want to ruin that part of the carpet. Maybe just the rear carpeting. Also under the front seats you can go ahead and just remove the foam if you like. Nobody will ever see it.

I know your wife made the leather center console for you but a carbon one or stock one would weigh less

Carbon rear diffuser. Not much but hey. IIRC you dont have a carbon one right? Although OEM CSL is around $2k. I dont think its worth it IMO

Perspex rear window. I dont know if this would actually work because theyre frameless. Also not much weight here (I think) looks like these guys have em for $715US. They dont ship to US either so youll need to figure that out. rear-window-green-w-antenne

You said you dont use the m3 in winter anymore. That makes the rear window heaters irrelevant. So maybe a Perspex rear window. (perhaps get an OE CSL one? CSL had lightweight side windows as well)

This will probably throw off the interior a bit but CSL rear seats are 46lbs lighter than stock. 46!!! 

The doors weigh a TON. Once again this will throw off the interior but carbon inserts.

lightweight muffler

And finally, SAP delete. Youll need to put it back for emmisions and it may throw a code. Maybe not worth the headache

Just a few ideas in case you overlooked them :)

 

SteelGreyM said:

I have been looking into nav units for my car. Avin 3 tops the list. I currently have the BMW Business CD and im just sick of having cables for aux and ruining the interior look. Looking at my trunk liner I only see an empty flap. I have HK speakers but no items in the back. This means I don't have to mess with the wiring project you did right? Please say yes. That job looked like a major headache :(

If you're looking for weight reduction ideas Here's one of my ideas but im not sure how effective it is. Perhaps "shaving" the carpet foam off would cut some weight. Not talking about removing it all but maybe half to 3/4 of the total thickness. I wouldn't do the drivers area as the floor isnt flat and if you mess up really don't want to ruin that part of the carpet. Maybe just the rear carpeting. Also under the front seats you can go ahead and just remove the foam if you like. Nobody will ever see it.

I know your wife made the leather center console for you but a carbon one or stock one would weigh less

Carbon rear diffuser. Not much but hey. IIRC you dont have a carbon one right? Although OEM CSL is around $2k. I dont think its worth it IMO

Perspex rear window. I dont know if this would actually work because theyre frameless. Also not much weight here (I think) looks like these guys have em for $715US. They dont ship to US either so youll need to figure that out. rear-window-green-w-antenne

You said you dont use the m3 in winter anymore. That makes the rear window heaters irrelevant. So maybe a Perspex rear window. (perhaps get an OE CSL one? CSL had lightweight side windows as well)

This will probably throw off the interior a bit but CSL rear seats are 46lbs lighter than stock. 46!!! 

The doors weigh a TON. Once again this will throw off the interior but carbon inserts.

lightweight muffler

And finally, SAP delete. Youll need to put it back for emmisions and it may throw a code. Maybe not worth the headache

Just a few ideas in case you overlooked them :)

 

Lol. I did a LOT more than get rid of speaker wire, so I don't see much overlap, there. Sorry :P

I have trouble conveying to people what I'm going for with the weight loss, but it's basically weight loss without compromise. As in, I'm not making a track only gutted car-- I want to retain full civility. So things like thinning the carpet or removing the sound deadening under it aren't for me. And certainly not a lighter muffler :P

Back seats: The CSL and standard M3 seat bottoms weight the same. The CSL backrests are 4 lbs lighter. I don't think that's worth it to ruin the aesthetic theme of my interior. Not sure where you got 46 lbs-- that's a bit more weight than you'd save by removing the seats completely and running no back seat/just sheet metal. Which was a non starter before, but even more so now that my wife is pregnant :P

Arm rest: According the BMW, the leather wrapped plastic center console weighs 0.9 kg whereas the straight plastic version weights 0.791 kg. I can live with that tradeoff. Carbon is a non starter as the armrest is a must... and the leather wrapped plastic console is only .9 kg, so non much savings to to carbon there. 

My rear diffuser is carbon. But, that's not really a weight saver anyway-- the stock diffuser is also only 0.9 kg. The CSL's OE carbon diffuser is 0.5 kg. So, I have that... but it's not much of a change-- 0.4 kg. 

The CSL rear glass is NLA. I tried to get it when I did my CF roof (glass had to be removed), and it is now impossible to buy. BMW has run out and is not buy-- CSL owners replacing their rear window receive standard M3 rear glass when they order the CSL part. I don't like plastic windows. I had them originally on my dedicated track car, and then paid to go back to stock glass. I just prefer the clarity and not flapping around of it. Also, I still use the defroster-- windows fog up outside of winter... And the radio antenna is in the rear window. 

The CSL had the same side windows as the M3-- in both the front and back.

The CSL door cards (carbon) weigh 4.4kg. The M3 door cards (leather) weigh 4.65 kg. Neither is "heavy", and the weight savings for going to the CSL CF door cards are pretty negligible. 

My SAP is already deleted. I throw no codes and have no problem with emissions/state inspection.

In total, if I did the CSL back seats. CF center console, and CF door inserts, I'd spend ~$10,000, save ~7 lbs, and have an interior I like significantly less. Doesn't add up, imo!

In reply to Obioban :

Honestly I took the first source that I got for the rear seat weight :P

Im surprised that the door card weights are nearly the same. Why is the CSL so much lighter? A quick Google search shows that it is only 3050 pounds. I mean the seats are the biggest difference I think but you already have that done. 

I have the same goals as you for my m3. Retain the OEM look, feel, and features while putting in upgrades. But yea I agree that the carpet foam cant possibly weigh that much. Not worth it.

I thought removing the SAP threw out "not ready" codes. I currently have mine simply disabled because im catless. May go ahead and just simply remove it. There are 2 buttons in ECU worx for sap. One is to turn it off (which I have), and the second is for a complete delete. I think im gonna go ahead and do that then!

I think you already removed the sound deadening from under the rear seat right? im gonna go ahead and do that. Mines already peeling off like all other m3's :P

Man I cant think of anything else for you to remove or replace. You really have done it all. Only way I can see you losing weight while meeting your goal is CF panels. Like a full CF door. BW has a pair for $3k. Thn paint which is what? At least $800...  Keep in mind the stock doors (stripped out) weigh 40lbs (2 sources). So looks like ~65 lbs saved! Looks like youll be spending $4k to lose 65lbs. You decide if thats worth it haha. BimmerWorld-Carbon-Fiber-Doors-Pair-E46-Coupe.html

CF hood is pointless. Stock hood is already aluminum and lightweight.

Im honestly so impressed that you managed to get it down to 3100lbs while keeping a stock look. I plan to do the very same with mine. Do you notice the weight loss while driving though? Im wondering how much of my time/money I should devote to weight loss rather than performance

SteelGreyM said:

In reply to Obioban :

Honestly I took the first source that I got for the rear seat weight :P

Im surprised that the door card weights are nearly the same. Why is the CSL so much lighter? A quick Google search shows that it is only 3050 pounds. I mean the seats are the biggest difference I think but you already have that done. 

I have the same goals as you for my m3. Retain the OEM look, feel, and features while putting in upgrades. But yea I agree that the carpet foam cant possibly weigh that much. Not worth it.

I thought removing the SAP threw out "not ready" codes. I currently have mine simply disabled because im catless. May go ahead and just simply remove it. There are 2 buttons in ECU worx for sap. One is to turn it off (which I have), and the second is for a complete delete. I think im gonna go ahead and do that then!

I think you already removed the sound deadening from under the rear seat right? im gonna go ahead and do that. Mines already peeling off like all other m3's :P

Man I cant think of anything else for you to remove or replace. You really have done it all. Only way I can see you losing weight while meeting your goal is CF panels. Like a full CF door. BW has a pair for $3k. Thn paint which is what? At least $800...  Keep in mind the stock doors (stripped out) weigh 40lbs (2 sources). So looks like ~65 lbs saved! Looks like youll be spending $4k to lose 65lbs. You decide if thats worth it haha. BimmerWorld-Carbon-Fiber-Doors-Pair-E46-Coupe.html

CF hood is pointless. Stock hood is already aluminum and lightweight.

Im honestly so impressed that you managed to get it down to 3100lbs while keeping a stock look. I plan to do the very same with mine. Do you notice the weight loss while driving though? Im wondering how much of my time/money I should devote to weight loss rather than performance

The 3050 lb version of the CSL is the no AC, halogen headlights, no radio variant. Most CSLs, the way people bought them (with the no cost option of AC and radio), were more like 3150 lbs. 

Whereas the M3 curb weight of 3415 lbs was "as typically equiped"-- so that includes sunroof (CSL is 50 lbs lighter here), heated/power/leather seats (CSL is 65 lbs lighter here), xenons, etc. It's a bunch of little things, though-- CSL had a lighter cabin air filter (which I've already installed), battery, the airbox is lighter and allows a bunch of supporting parts to be removed, every exhaust section is a little lighter, the front bumper is lighter, the back seats are a little lighter, some airbags are removed (front and rear side airbags), the wheels are lighter, some (of the less useful) sound deadening is removed, the rear glass is thinner, it doesn't have the front center armrest, etc etc. Many small changes add up to the greater whole. 

I removed the sound deadening that BMW removed in the CSL by comparing parts diagrams. My assumption is that BMW did some R&D on NHV tradeoffs there. 

The weight loss is 100% noticeable every time I drive the car. It's easily the best thing I've done to the car. The brake mods only made it stop better. The suspension mods only made it turn better. The power mods only made it accelerate better. The weight mods make it brake, turn and accelerate better, as well as making it more efficient and reducing the stress on all components.

Brand new parts are so satisfying to work with. It's like having a CA car  

CSL kingpins (with anti seize), Hard Motorsports 355mm brake duct backing plates (which are E36 M3ty, but I can't find an alternative), and new OEM (FAG) wheel bearings with OE dust caps.

Interesting. Ill have to go in and compare the sound deadening between the two. Seems like seats were best bang for buck. Got an awesome seat and saved a ton of weight!

Kingpins looking good but you havent gotten to the "fun" part - Taking the old one off :P

They’re off.

In reply to Obioban :

Lucky you. It took me A LOT of swearing to get mine off. Im interested in hearing your thoughts on the kingpins.

What TPMS sensors are you running with the avin? Looks small enough to not be noticeable and shows detailed information

SteelGreyM said:

In reply to Obioban :

Lucky you. It took me A LOT of swearing to get mine off. Im interested in hearing your thoughts on the kingpins.

What TPMS sensors are you running with the avin? Looks small enough to not be noticeable and shows detailed information

Not that bad with the right tool:

https://www.harborfreight.com/3-4-quarter-inch-forged-ball-joint-separator-99849.html

That guy plus light hammer tapping as you use it and you'll have the ball joints popped and undamaged in ~1 min each. 

These are the TPMS sensors I'm running: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D3LTM41/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They're not that subtle, and I'd find them unacceptable for my street wheels, but for track wheels, which is an environment where they're likely to be damaged, they fit the bill pretty perfectly IMO. 

In reply to Obioban :

I was using a pickle fork when I did my control arms. I ended up going on too late and the stores were closed. Next day I bought that and a 4lb hammer...

I may look into an internal TPMS sensor for the ultimate OEM look. Appreciate the heads up

By the way I don't remember your response to the carbon door idea. Too exotic for a "street" car?

SteelGreyM said:

In reply to Obioban :

I was using a pickle fork when I did my control arms. I ended up going on too late and the stores were closed. Next day I bought that and a 4lb hammer...

I may look into an internal TPMS sensor for the ultimate OEM look. Appreciate the heads up

By the way I don't remember your response to the carbon door idea. Too exotic for a "street" car?

Too dangerous without a roll cage.

In reply to Obioban :

whoops :P

I've had a rethink on how I'm going to route it through the undertray. 

I'm going to pass it through right below the sway bar mount bracket. But, instead of drilling a 3" hole and sticking the tube through, I'm going to print a bracket. On the far side I'll add some BMW under trim screw clips. The bracket will pass through and insert into another bracket on the other side. Screws will pass through the outside bracket, then through the underbody panel, then into the far side bracket with attached screw clips. This should minimize the hassle for any project where the undertray has to come out, or where I need the ducting out of the wheel well for car work, and make replacement hose easier (and less of it required) if something happens to the hose in the wheel well. 

Inside bracket:



Outside bracket:



3 screws will take everything apart, while leaving the hose clamped onto the bracket 

Well, my pass through duct plan didn't work out. The flat portion of the belly tray doesn't extent far enough back to pass it through there and have the duct not interfere with the tire when at full lock. So, I just cut a 3" hole towards the front, and then made it into a U shaped slot that inserts over the duct. Not as fun as what I was hoping for, but it works :P

Anyway... 

Wheel turned all the way in:




Wheel turned all the way out:




All the way out, from next to the car:




Mounted up from the front:




Unless I run into unexpected issues, I think this is complete.

All buttoned up, with the bumper back on:

Side note:
ZHP steering rack, CSL Kingpins, and new wheel bearings are installed, and I'm back on the stock oil cooler. 

The various projects took a couple lbs off the nose, so hopefully it's closer to an even 50:50 distro now. 

I'm hoping to have time to corner balance the car this weekend (and code the MK60 for the new rack, and flush all the fluids), then take it to get aligned, then corner balance it again... and then I can finally form an opinion on this flat ride stuff :D

I wasn't originally going to post about this, but the weight difference ended up being bigger than I expected. I noticed a while back that the CSL has a different aux coolant pump than the M3. This was probably to allow it to have more clearance to the airbox, but maybe not (since the stock on cleared). The CSL used the same one as the non M e46 (64118369805), so when I randomly stumbled upon one I grabbed it. 

Dry weight between them is 1.22 lbs per realoem, but I suspect the actual weight difference is a little more since it fills with coolant. 
CSL/e46 version: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=64118369805
M3 version: http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/part...&q=64118369807

Wiring was pretty easy-- the M3 version has two plugs, whereas the non M version has 1. One of the plugs from the M3 part connects to the non M version, so I used that, cut off the other and taped it into the harness, and all seems to work as expected. 

Size comparison: 




Installed: 



I fully understand that 1.5 lbs isn't much in isolation. Just working on pushing that weight distro back to 50:50

Side note: I'm corner balancing the car this weekend. I believe I've taken ~12 lbs off the nose this winter, between the aux coolant pump, (xenon) fog light delete (minus brake duct install), going back to the stock oil cooler, and removing some unused wiring. 

Here's to hoping I get .1-.2% of the 50:50 distro back

I had the car on track this weekend with flat ride for the first time. Setup: 1.84hz front, 2.09hz rear, for a 1.13 bounce ratio, with a FRC of 68%. 3.25 front camber, 1.8 rear camber, square tire setup, square hot tire pressures. 

The car DID settle down much faster, so I think I'm really going to enjoy flat ride, but... holy E36 M3 was it over steer city with that 68% FRC. It made it hard to think about anything else. 

So, before my next event I'm debating the following options: 
1) stock M3 rear sway. This would move me to a 69% FRC (1% change)... not overly significant change 
2) remove the rear sway completely. This would give me a 76% FRC. Feels like this might be too significant of a change and make the car all understeer all the time. 
3) remove the rear sway and change to stiffer rear springs. This would let me get any FRC I want, but make the rear of the car stiffer than I'd like
4) stiffer front sway. I'd rather not do this if possible. 
5) increase rear bump travel/decrease rear droop travel. This will put the front into the bump stops before the rear, which should push the car into understeer more at the limit. 

I'm pretty surprised how oversteery the car felt at 68%, given than the stock M3 is 68%! Maybe the oversteer/understeer limit feeling is more determined by the on bump stop FRC? In which case stock is 71.6%... 

Anyway, I'm open to input as to which route to proceed with. I'm kinda sorta leaning towards stock M3 sway (moves me to 69%), but don't really want to spend another with the car wanting to spin on me every turn. I had quite a few pucker moments 

Do we really think 75% is neutral? Seems like the stock M3 is biased towards understeer, and it's 68-72%...

I think I'm initially going to do a combination of 1 & 5, and see how she feels next event.

You could always just pop an endlink off the rear swaybar to test your thoughts on running no rear bar. That's way quicker than dropping the whole bar just for testing and cheaper than buying a new bar.

I removed the rear sway (8 lbs of loss) and traded some rear droop for bump this weekend (the goal being to put the front into bump stops before the rear, putting the car into understeer if I run out of travel). The next day I took it out for some hard back roads driving. The car felt great, and I didn't remember till I got home that I had removed sway-- so it was certainly not ruined or made weird by the rear sway removal. 

The limits are too high to judge the oversteer/understeer situation on the street, so I don't really have anything to report on that respect till the next event. Currently sitting at a 75.7 FRC. 

The best way to describe the car now on back road bombing would be unflappable. The car was absurdly composed, no matter what I did with (to) it. Bumps were immediately absorbed, car never lost its set. I was actively driving in a style that would upset the car, and it just wasn't having it. I'm pretty sold on this flat ride concept! It also rides really well-- better than my 530i (came with not very good aftermarket springs) . IF the car ends up being too understeery with the new setup, I'll likely stiffen up the rear springs next.

Current setup: 
1.84hz front, 2.09hz rear, 1.14 bounce ratio, 75.7% FRC. 

Potential next setup, if the car is now too understeer biased: 
1.84hz front, 2.20hz rear, 1.19 bounce ratio, 73.8% FRC

The steering is also not nearly as twitchy, with street camber/toe. I am surprised to say that the steering doesn't feel any heavier? This surprises me because I... 
-reduced the power steering assist by 25%
-added caster via CSL kingpins, which should make it heavier 
-add caster via camber/caster plates, which should make it heavier 
-went to a faster ratio rack

This isn't really a complaint, as I didn't want it heavier-- I did the 25% less assist to reduce the pressure in the lines (make them stop sweating). Just surprising.