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AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
10/12/17 1:14 p.m.
Ed Higginbotham said:

If it's legal with NASA, I'd LOVE to see this thing at the UTCC.

I have to decide what to do with the cage to make it as legal as possible for both road racing and drag racing.

I plan on adding a 3-axis accelerometer to the traction control system. It will control boost and active aero in hard corners. With enough electronic wizardry, the car should be competitive in pretty much everything.

mccrimmon
mccrimmon New Reader
10/13/17 9:41 a.m.

Love Love Love this build. A totally "on the cheap" hoon mobile. I'd drive this thing everywhere as well. I also agree with the "LS swap just about anything" quote. One of my cars is LS / T56 swapped.

 

Following this thread for sure. Thanks for sharing!!

Spinout007
Spinout007 UberDork
10/13/17 3:04 p.m.
AwesomeAuto said:
edizzle89 said:
AwesomeAuto said:

These stock injectors might carry me to 700 HP but I'm looking to go way passed that.

what stock injectors can support 700 hp? I plan on boosting my 4.8 down the road and was planning on running deka 80 lb injectors but if there is a cheaper option then im always down for that.

The stock 4.8 injectors with the pintle caps cut off. The caps are put on the ends of the injectors to create the spray pattern. Cut them off and you get full, unrestricted flow, and it only takes about 10 seconds each to cut them off.  With the stock engine at 8 PSI and 300whp, I was only at 50% duty cycle. I should be able to make 700 on an engine dyno with them no problems. The stock flex fuel injectors from a 5.3 with the caps cut off were only 80% at 600whp in a twin turbo 4.8 I did for a friend on a Dyno Dynamics dyno that reads fairly low. The best part is they're all basically free. Tricks like this helped me get what I have now on a $3500 budget.

I'm not sure if I need to kiss you or smack you with a hammer for telling me this. I was debating on a pair of chinese hair dryers for my 2k silverado with a 5.3 in it, but finding suitable injectors was the expensive part.... Now to finish building the shop/barn.

In all seriousness. Bad ass build! Thanks for the tech tips along the way.

frenchyd
frenchyd HalfDork
10/20/17 8:15 p.m.

In reply to AwesomeAuto : why windshield washer fluid? It's only about 10% methanol 

The cooling effect of 85% ethanol plus it's 114 octane not only  prevents  preignition  but cools the charge better.   Than 10% methanol and water 

 

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
10/26/17 9:10 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto : why windshield washer fluid? It's only about 10% methanol 

The cooling effect of 85% ethanol plus it's 114 octane not only  prevents  preignition  but cools the charge better.   Than 10% methanol and water 

 

Not true at all. -20*F windshield washer fluid that is readily available everywhere is 30% methanol, 70% water.

Water cools far better than methanol could ever hope to.

Charge air temps have a lot less to do with preignition and detonation than people think. Methanol does a slightly better job of cooling charge temps because it evaporates more readily than water, but water absorbs twice as much heat energy as methanol when it is converted to gas. It also takes twice as much energy to raise the temperature of water at room temps as it does methanol. Water wins in the cooling department, hands down.

The second problem is that methanol still burns. It might cool charge temps slightly, but its still going to ignite and produce heat. The water will not. Methanol's only benefit here is that its 'slightly' cooler than gasoline. It will still force heat into pistons, it will still cause rings to expand. For guys running cast pistons and tight ring gaps, water wins here too. During compression, the temperature of water is raised high enough that it flashes to steam before ignition. This removes so much heat from the cylinder that it makes detonation or pre-ignition almost impossible. Methanol is still able to detonate in this situation. It will remove some heat, but if it has evaporated, it takes far less energy to raise its temperature, and therefore its still very possible to obtain pre-ignition temperatures during compression.

So for guys running cast pistons that need to stay cool to prevent cracking, and tight ring gaps that need to stay cool to prevent expansion, water beats methanol every time.

 

If you have forged pistons and preferable ring gaps, methanol is the way to go.

If you are out of fuel injector and need supplemental fuel to make more power, methanol is the way to go.

If you have a wild combo but the CFM flow of your heads isn't up to the task, methanol will cool the charge air better and allow more power for a given port size.

 

But for pure cooling purposes, water is king.

frenchyd
frenchyd HalfDork
10/26/17 9:53 a.m.

In reply to AwesomeAuto :OK  I hadn't considered that aspect.  I've learned several things from you now, thank you 

I've never used an engine that has been boosted without at least opening up ring gaps. It's nice to know it's possible under certain circumstances.  I wonder if you could carry enough "water" to make it through a race?  

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
10/26/17 10:08 a.m.

Washer fluid spray is 10% or less of gasoline.

A typical 1 gallon washer fluid bottle will last as long as 10 gallons of gasoline IN BOOST. If you only spend 50% of your time in boost, it will last as long as my entire 20 gallon fuel cell of gasoline.

 

No worries about running out.

frenchyd
frenchyd HalfDork
10/26/17 11:13 a.m.

In reply to AwesomeAuto :Thinking out loud, At Elkhart Lake , I could burn through 5 gallons of water in a race and come into the pits bone dry  ( but there I used it to supplement braking) 

In a race I use about 18 gallons of fuel.  But that was making about 300 horsepower. I'm expecting over 500 and I'll be using E85 which means I'll need about 65% more fuel.  I'm guessing (off the top of my head)  I'll need 40gallons so 2 gallons of fluid should work. 

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
10/26/17 11:46 a.m.

Water/meth is less of an issue with E85. That pre-ignition threshold during compression is raised significantly, and if your rings were properly gapped, water is also less of a requirement. Pure methanol can still easily be used to supplement extra fuel, as well as keep charge temps down, but mainly for efficiency and not detonation resistance.

 

Some people seem to think that lowering their charge temps by 40 degrees is going to make a world of difference. The problem is, as soon as the air passes through that big aluminum heat-sink of a cylinder heat, its going to get heated, then it'll get heated when it hits the cylinder/piston, and your final temps end up being 10 degrees cooler rather than the 40 you had before. 10 degrees is a drop in the bucket compared to the 495 degrees it takes to auto-ignite gasoline. You basically reduce the detonation chance by a whole 2% from a 40 degree reduction in charge temps.

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
11/10/17 2:23 p.m.

Minor progress.  This is my first prototype of the gauge display. Nothing fancy. 45 mins or so to set up.

Its a 7" touch screen with a good bit of built in memory. I will add a config button so I can use it to adjust settings for meth injection, nitrous, traction control, boost control, fan temps, 2nd fuel pump, etc. I will put it through its first official test tonight.

 

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
12/3/17 11:41 p.m.

To piggyback on the topic of uncapping fuel injectors for additional flow:

I got bored while the family was gone so I decided to make an injector tester using an old set of rails/injectors, a knockoff arduino uno and relay module, and some old plastic graduated cylinders that I had laying around. For the rails/injectors, wood, arduino stuff I have maybe $15 in the project. I bought the graduated cylinders a long time ago and can't remember what I paid for them.

I took injector 25317628. Flow tested it out at 228 cc/min which is exactly what Delphi has them rated for, and then removed the caps and they reflowed to a MINIMUM of 774 cc/min with one of them flowing 810 cc/min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXORRzCMEJc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfJ62HtSMPc

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
12/4/17 2:35 p.m.

In reply to AwesomeAuto : I really enjoy how you demystify things.  Simple,  straight forward, and informative.  

Do you happen to know if Lucas or Bosch have caps that can be removed to increase flow? 

 

edizzle89
edizzle89 Dork
12/4/17 3:44 p.m.

does de-capping change the spray pattern at all?

Mr. Lee
Mr. Lee UberDork
12/4/17 5:19 p.m.

In reply to edizzle89 :

I would imagine it does considering they go from two tiny holes being sprayed out of to one larger hole

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
12/4/17 7:09 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto : I really enjoy how you demystify things.  Simple,  straight forward, and informative.  

Do you happen to know if Lucas or Bosch have caps that can be removed to increase flow? 

 

Yes, most factory injectors have caps on them that can be removed. I've only ran into a few injectors that presented a big challenge for removing caps, such as the CNG injectors GM used in the Gen 3/4 engines. Those are 50 lbs injectors with caps on them, so I'm hoping for big things once I figure out how to remove them. The truck injectors that I uncapped in the video have a plastic cover over the end of them that is mainly there just to hold the O-ring on. The ones on the CNG injectors are stainless and pressed on, so removing them to get to the cap is going to be a challenge.

A lot of the larger aftermarket injectors don't have caps. My Deka 80s do not. I imagine all of the 800cc+ Bosch injectors will not have them.

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
12/4/17 7:11 p.m.
edizzle89 said:

does de-capping change the spray pattern at all?

Yes, it will change the spray pattern. One thing I noticed is that the pattern changes a LOT with fuel pressure. With the caps still on and only 20 PSI of fuel pressure, the stock injectors would squirt instead of mist. At 60 PSI they mist. With the caps off at 60 PSI, its more of a squirt than a mist, but still not too bad. At 90 PSI of fuel pressure, they seem to mist a bit again.

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
12/5/17 5:01 p.m.

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

excuse a foolish question but is fuel pressure adjustable?  In other words should I be looking for a bigger or more powerful fuel pump(s) 

Background behind the question 

I intend to put two turbos on my Jag V12  and run it on E85 on the race track. Based on the volume of fuel needed I don’t believe the stock fuel pump will work. So should I plan on using 2 pumps, 2 lines, and two return lines? 

 

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
12/6/17 7:11 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

excuse a foolish question but is fuel pressure adjustable?  In other words should I be looking for a bigger or more powerful fuel pump(s) 

Background behind the question 

I intend to put two turbos on my Jag V12  and run it on E85 on the race track. Based on the volume of fuel needed I don’t believe the stock fuel pump will work. So should I plan on using 2 pumps, 2 lines, and two return lines? 

 

You can run 2 pumps and just Y them together so you only have to run a single line. Regulators typically only allow a single return line as well so no need to run 2 feed or return lines.
Do you plan to run internal or external? There are some large pumps available for either without breaking the bank. The walbro 450 internal pump (part number engine in 267) can make good power on E85, as can a single AEM 400 (the new replacement for the AEM 380). Either can be had for $150 or less.

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
12/6/17 10:35 a.m.

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

This would be for a chumpcar racecar and one of the rules is you can run a stock gas tank in the stock location but I don’t remember reading about any rule requiring the stock pump. 

If I could get an aftermarket pump in the tank I think that would be better. I simply doubt a pump that normally meets the requirement of 300 horsepower will meet the requirement of 550+ horsepower

i also doubt the fuel lines will flow enough too

My favorite track is Elkhart Lake, a 4 mile long track with three long straights where you are at full power for about 45 seconds each!!! 

That’s a lot of fuel and I’m at a little loss as to how to do the calculations

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
12/6/17 10:46 a.m.

The E85 compatible Walbro (F90000267) can do 600 HP on E85 and is an in-tank pump that fits most OEM applications.

Fuel lines usually aren't a problem as long as they can handle increased fuel pressure. Even 3/8" and 5/16" line on most OEM vehicles has been pushed well over 800 HP. High pressure does wonders for flow.

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
12/6/17 11:44 a.m.

Once again I thank you 

life gets less complex when I don’t have to recreate the wheel. 

 

AwesomeAuto
AwesomeAuto New Reader
12/6/17 11:47 a.m.

Most people jump on the bangwagon of "It won't work because it wont".

I prefer to find out for myself. Its amazing how often those myths are wrong.

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
12/6/17 1:05 p.m.

In reply to AwesomeAuto :

That’s my approach as well.  Another myth I’ve found easy to overcome is money solves all problems.  

As a kid I wanted to road race but everyone told me it was only for the rich.  I learned how to repair and then modify cars. That allowed me to race my own creations. Pretty successfully I think. 

Now I’m told im too old to..  I hope to prove otherwise

Mr. Lee
Mr. Lee UberDork
12/6/17 1:20 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I was asked by my dad what I wanted to do as an adult when I was a kid. I said race cars. "you don't have the reflexes for it" was the answer I got. I've since done track days and autox. Working on the funding to be able to join a team and do some door to door. Having caught a spin and not even realized that I did it till after it was all over, I don't think reflexes are what was holding me back.

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
12/6/17 1:35 p.m.

There will always be people who tell you can’t do...... Maybe because they are afraid to try, maybe because they have a different agenda for your life, maybe because they don’t want you to.  

Life is short, why not live it as you want to? Don’t let things like a lack of money stop you, heck I’d take someone willing to work and learn in leu of just bringing money

I’m sure there are old geezers like me around you that would gladly work out that kind of deal.  Won’t know unless you ask. Check Chumpcar and LeMons site to start.  Then walk around and talk to teams. 

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