The Traccord - 2003 Honda Accord Coupe

Just got this in an email from Mike Jr. at Carbotech. I love the customer service from these guys. Sounds like there is a consensus here that I need ducting and to clearance the backing plates a bit as well and check and grease the caliper slides and make sure everything is on the up and up. 

That is all heat related. You need to get some air ducting run to that area to keep things cooler. The pads and rotors are either getting hot enough to soften the backing plate and bend it under hard brake pressure at high temps or your caliper is flexing and causing the pads to get caught in them without releasing. It's not common but it does happen. We have had to make higher grade and sometime thicker backing plates for certain cars over the years because of this (C5 Vette, Neon SRT-4 and older VW race cars, to name a few.) 

If you cannot get some cooling run in there, we may have to consider a laser cut backing plate for you as well. 

Check and make sure you did not have a mechanical malfunction that caused the pads to get stuck or not release form the rotor. That could create this level of eat as well. Just so you know, you were 1500+ deg F sustained temp range.

Mike Jr.

This is why I run Carbotech pads!

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Just got this in an email from Mike Jr. at Carbotech. [... ...]

That is all heat related. You need to get some air ducting run to that area to keep things cooler. The pads and rotors are either getting hot enough to soften the backing plate and bend it under hard brake pressure at high temps or your caliper is flexing and causing the pads to get caught in them without releasing. It's not common but it does happen. We have had to make higher grade and sometime thicker backing plates for certain cars over the years because of this (C5 Vette, Neon SRT-4 and older VW race cars, to name a few.) 

If you cannot get some cooling run in there, we may have to consider a laser cut backing plate for you as well. 

Check and make sure you did not have a mechanical malfunction that caused the pads to get stuck or not release form the rotor. That could create this level of eat as well. Just so you know, you were 1500+ deg F sustained temp range.

Mike Jr.

I wonder if the caliper flexing comment seems particularly relavent... since that might help explain the uneven inside/outside pad wear?  I mean, we know this caliper is not exactly intended for motorsports.  And CT's site *seems* to indicate that the 4cyls have a different caliper than the V6 auto cars, or the V6 manual coupe (which seems to share caliper with the auto-TL's)... although it's not clear what all the differences are since there's certainly rotor differences between all three too.

Are the front uprights hubs shared between all three?  Going to a larger rotor would give us more room to get cooling into the middle.

So what you're saying is I need to go back to the JY to see what swaps? 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

need?

I dunno, I like to try and avoid that word most time... especially from a recommendation perspective, and I don't want to speak for your own time.  

is it something to consider?  maybe

I can dig around for rotor sizes if you want... dunno if I can figure out the upright/caliper mount thing online.

did some poking around ctek / brakewarehouse.com (second one just because they list detailed, although unknown accuracy specs)

and it looks like there's only two rotors for '03 Accords (CarboTec pad recommendations have a greater year range), a 12.1 for 4cyl and a 12 for the V6's... being 4#s heavier.  Maybe I'll dig through rockauto and see if I can figure out caliper stuffs.

I wonder also, is the caliper itself flexing or might it be shifting around on the guides? for euro cars it's somewhat commonplace to swap out the plastic oem guides with bronze alternatives. Does such a thing exist for the Hondas? 

In reply to Dashpot and ¯\_(ツ)_/¯:   somebody buy these guys a drink.   but bring two straws, because they have to share.   

and to Mazdeuce - Seth:  Perfect is the enemy of good enough.   

On a street car, Clearance between the abutment ears on the brake pad backing plate and the caliper bracket is kept to a minimum to avoid rattle noises when not braking.  the risk is that the ears can get bound up in the bracket at elevated temperatures, and give you the banana, as it were.   study which surfaces on the abutment ears react to which surfaces on the caliper bracket, then file / belt-sand / grind a few thou off of em.   rattling pads are OK on a race car.

As for front rotor cooling, a piece of vacuum cleaner hose from front fascia to somewhere generally aiming between the caliper and the CV is going to be a great deal better than what you've got.  trim the dust shield so the airflow from your duct can get to the rotor.

Improved airflow is the belt.   Clearance on the abutments is the suspenders.   wear em both and your pants wont fall down.

FWIW - I blew through the entire friction surface, severely bent the backing plates & welded then worst to a caliper piston (wish I saved a pic). This was on day 2 of a new set of CT XP10's on a brand new car. I was surprised to say the least.

This was the 2nd car I tried CTs on without success. Never used them again, never had the problem again.

Also had friction surface completely detach from the backing plate on EBC Yellows, another surprise. Never used them again either. Stuck w/PFC when available and Hawk as a 2nd choice since then. 

We all learn the hard way right?

Heat. Been thinking of heat. I did burn the dust seals out, but only on the back side. 

And to brake caliper sizing theory. Everything I can find says these calipers are a single 57mm bore. I'm not taking them apart to measure the bore, but the piston measures a bit over 55mm. 

My understanding is that the piston in a single piston caliper has to move twice as far as a double to squeeze everything, so a caliper with double 57's would be the same or any combination of pistons that equal the same area on one side. 57mm, some stuff with pies, conversion to inches because Wilwood, and an area of 3.941 square inches. Now, Wilwood has a BUNCH of versions of the Superlight and Fastbrakes makes an adapter to make it all work and lord knows that every brake compound known to man is available for the Superlight.

Or just duct these and see how it goes. 

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

re. 57 bore vs 55 on the readout, are you measuring the piston diameter near the dust boot?   becasue that's not the diameter that matters.   it's the diameter that's exposed to fluid pressure that matters.

re. your explanation of hydraulic brake piston movement, i'm not sure what you mean by a "double 57".

apply belt and suspenders stated in my previous post.   win.

Dashpot said:

FWIW - I blew through the entire friction surface, severely bent the backing plates & welded then worst to a caliper piston (wish I saved a pic). This was on day 2 of a new set of CT XP10's on a brand new car. I was surprised to say the least.

any chance that was on the rear of an S197?

If you wanted a 4 piston caliper, you'd want the surface area of the two pistons on one side to be equal(ish) to the surface area of the 57mm stock pistons, for a 6 piston it'd be the 3 on one side = to the area of a 57mm. The whole single = double thing comes about because the bottom of the bore on the caliper is effectively the piston for the outer pads.

In reply to AngryCorvair :

That was just my was of confirming that when I read 57mm bore online that's probably correct. 

What I mean by double 57 is that you would push the same amount of fluid for a single 57mm bore as you would if you had 57mm pistons on each side. Or if you divided that area up among 4 or 6 or whatever number of pistons. As long as the area is the same the master will work. That was in reference to me looking through the Wilwood site and seeing that they have four piston Superlites with pistons from 1.12-1.88 inches. This gives me that ability to match caliper volume to my current system and not need to change masters. In theory. As it is, Fastbrakes sells the kit which should have the right calipers to make it all work hunky dory. I'm trying to spend my wife's hard earned money here. 

Get brake ducting in place.  Really good brake ducting.  Then see what happens.  I've always gone to the track with overkill for brakes because I like to stop.  Generally its worked out well for me.  I understand the desire to not spend a ton of money on brakes for this car tho, is there a factory upgrade that bolts on that you can source from a junkyard?

I need new pads and rotors no matter what. I should upgrade lines. That has me $300 into it. The factory Acura Brembos cost more than Wilwoods. I'm working out consumable costs now, to figure out my payoff for two sets of brakes a year. 

Your brakes appear to be pretty close to okay.

Grindy grind and add some airflow and you will be fine.

No need to reinvent the wheel and possibly need to worry about abs interactions and brake bias.

In reply to AngryCorvair :

Sorry for the off Honda topic - '07 Mini Cooper S. A fun car on & off track.

It looks like you need to replace stuff anyway, but when you do, I'd take the gunsmith's approach with the new stuff before installation.  Don't remove a lot of material, but make the sliding surfaces between the backing plates and the caliper/brackets as smooth and shiny as possible.

Woody said:

It looks like you need to replace stuff anyway,

This is where I'm at. I need new rotors and pads. The only "good" parts of the system are the calipers and lines and I should really replace the lines. 

Seth-I've advertised a StopTech WRX front brake set-up here in the past.  2xST40 calipers plus two composite rotors with 5x100 and 5x114.3 BCP plus caliper brackets, hoses and pads.  I'd like to sell it.  Maybe you can fit it on the Accord?

In reply to wawazat :

As much as I want to be a fabricator, and I kind of know what it would take to make it work, I'm not that guy right now. Sorry. 

Give me good customer service and you'll get me as a customer. I'm easy like that. I had a great email exchange with Brian at Fastbrakes. Without hesitation he told me the rotor was from an 06-13 Maxima, he can send the kit with no pads at a discount so I can source proper track pads, and in general just answered all my questions. 

I could make the stock brakes work, I already know that, but I'm getting close to what they're capable of at stock horsepower. I ran it by Mrs. Deuce and she says brakes are safety and safety gets priority. I'll call and order them on Monday and then see if I can figure out how to make them play nice with the rest of the system. 

Edit: Ohgoddammit, I just checked to see why my shocks didn't get here yet since I KNOW they said Friday/Saturday when I ordered them earlier in the week. Except I didn't actually order them. I put them in my cart and wandered away. 

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Edit: Ohgoddammit, I just checked to see why my shocks didn't get here yet since I KNOW they said Friday/Saturday when I ordered them earlier in the week. Except I didn't actually order them. I put them in my cart and wandered away. 

I replied to that email a week ag..... nope, still in drafts... 

This is only the second set of "performance" shocks that I've bought new. The last set was in 2002. Shocks are almost fully depreciated the moment the wheels touch the ground and I hate that. Most of the good shocks I've owned came attached to a car. These aren't the best, but I'm hoping that for the money I can get them to work acceptably.