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LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
12/8/19 7:01 p.m.

I'm leaning towards the Lampredi twin-cam with FIAT 124 or 131 gearbox. Genuine race history. They make decent power. They're simple. Parts are cheap. And they don't take up much space when running a pair of IDF downdrafts. Sound pretty awesome, too:


 


A buddy of mine has a 124 Spider in his shop. I'll stop by and take some measurements this week 

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
12/8/19 8:19 p.m.

Sounds costly from here but you probably have a much better idea of this than I do. 

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
12/8/19 9:36 p.m.

I've found a few guys parting out 124 Spiders. Under $500 for the engine and trans together.

Thats for a regular 1.8L obviously. The 2.0L Abarth and Lancia engines are way beyond Challenge budget!

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
12/9/19 8:13 a.m.

The parts availability and low price point are great things about the Lampredi. It is also reasonably light weight  and small in every dimension. The engine's major flaws are the lack of dirt shielding for the timing belt, and its propensity to leak oil. The gearbox is small enough but has dismal ratios. Not nearly enough spread from 3rd to 5th, which will make no difference to a challenge car. Mounting may be an issue as the rear of the gearbox is low to the ground, where the Triumph is not. Flywheel to output shaft distance is shorter than the TR. Cable operated clutch on the Fiat, hydraulic on the TR. This may be the biggest challenge. I would attempt to mount a slave cylinder to the Fiat, but maybe the Fiat cable could be rigged to the TR pedal. 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
12/9/19 8:17 a.m.

Lampredi fun fact: Regardless of where you locate the distributor, you still need to time the jackshaft. If you get it wrong, the fuel pump cam hits #2 connecting rod!

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy PowerDork
12/9/19 8:28 a.m.
TurnerX19 said:

........

 

I would attempt to mount a slave cylinder to the Fiat, but maybe the Fiat cable could be rigged to the TR pedal. 

Take a look at the work by Jay Smith over on BritishV8.org.  Cable clutch actuation adapted for TR4:

Link to info and more pics

 

 

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
12/9/19 9:41 a.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

Thanks for the insight. Right now, the TR4 has no pedals at all. I was planning to swap them over from a 124 Spider donor ... unless there's some reason that's not a good idea?

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
12/9/19 9:45 a.m.
TurnerX19 said:

Lampredi fun fact: Regardless of where you locate the distributor, you still need to time the jackshaft. If you get it wrong, the fuel pump cam hits #2 connecting rod!

I plan to solve that problem by not knowing what a jackshaft is. Or a fuel pump cam for that matter. 

AWSX1686
AWSX1686 UltraDork
12/9/19 10:01 a.m.

I would not limit yourself to a carbureted engine. Fuel injection has so much to offer. Yeah, no one likes wiring, but especially if you start with a running car, you'd be surprised with how simple you can make it. 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
12/9/19 2:08 p.m.

In reply to AWSX1686 :

Most of us have given up on trying to bring LanEvo into the 21st century. I won't own a car with a carburettor but either system is easy on the Lampredi he seems set on.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
12/9/19 2:14 p.m.

In reply to LanEvo :

If you do buy a used DOHC Lampredi you absolutely need to know the jackshaft, and the timing belt change procedure. I would never try to run a freshly purchased unit without changing the belt. It isn't difficult to do, and the consequences of not doing it are vast. It is an interference engine, and belt failure seems to always break a piston as well as the head casting. 

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
12/9/19 2:20 p.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

Haha! I'm just trying to be realistic. I understand how carbs work (for the most part) and have the mechanical skill needed to get them running. I don't have the knowledge or skill to get EFI working ... and I can't afford to pay for labor on a Challenege budget. If I try to get too fancy, I'm afraid I'll never get the project done.

I think an Italian engine would be cool considering the TR4 is a Michelotti design. I'd prefer to use the FIAT 1.4 Turbo with Miata trans. But I have no idea how to deal with throttle by wire. Can you swap over the stock wiring harness with CAN bus and all that stuff? I just don't think I can pull it off.  

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 Dork
12/9/19 4:45 p.m.

In reply to LanEvo :

CAN bus is the step too far for me. I run a 1990 Volvo as my new car, so I have not really made the 21st century either. It still runs stock Bosch LH injection which never needs repair or makes much power. The 81 X1/9 which is my daily I converted to Megasquirt 13 years ago and taught myself to tune it on the road. It was reliable until quite recently. All the troubles seem to stem from re-using the now 39 year old wire harnesssurprise While not my favorite engine, the Lampredi DOHC swap has a lot of merit, andI am on board for support. I grew up in a sports car repair shop in Montclair NJ, open from 1960 til 1987, so both parts of your project are old familiars. I once swapped the DOHC Lampredi into an ASA 1000 GT for a customer. Had to raise the bonnet a little to clear in that chassis. Should fall into the TR.

keithedwards
keithedwards Reader
12/9/19 6:54 p.m.
LanEvo said:
keithedwards said:

TR4As used the same floor panels (and jack hole plugs), but no provision for the little jack.

 

Is this what you mean?

Yes, that is a TR4 frame. BTW, this is what I found for a decent picture and description of a stock TR3 jack. A TR4 jack was very similar

https://www.ebay.com/i/183559954014?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=183559954014&targetid=541454199332&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9012234&poi=&campaignid=6470552634&mkgroupid=81274458647&rlsatarget=pla-541454199332&abcId=1139336&merchantid=114687495&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_rfvBRCPARIsANlV66MlrrS8n3Cp66cBY7M_avR-zm2-7w_YLcFaHJ6WPg62sGrW0jFAUq8aAqRiEALw_wcB

RichardSIA
RichardSIA Reader
12/9/19 9:00 p.m.

FI (Fuel Infection) is a PITA, carbs are much simpler.

With a carb you can usually fix it very easily, even at the side of the road with minimal tools.

When FI has a problem you are truly stuck until you can diagnose it and obtain the new part.

I will never own another car with the fuel pump in the gas tank, which is SOP for FI.

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/10/19 12:52 p.m.
Robbie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Uh, no I'm agreeing with you completely. When I said you can get the cars "less than free" I meant you can get them really really cheap.

Sorry. My bad. I misunderstood you. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/10/19 1:12 p.m.
LanEvo said:

In reply to TurnerX19 :

Haha! I'm just trying to be realistic. I understand how carbs work (for the most part) and have the mechanical skill needed to get them running. I don't have the knowledge or skill to get EFI working ... and I can't afford to pay for labor on a Challenege budget. If I try to get too fancy, I'm afraid I'll never get the project done.

I think an Italian engine would be cool considering the TR4 is a Michelotti design. I'd prefer to use the FIAT 1.4 Turbo with Miata trans. But I have no idea how to deal with throttle by wire. Can you swap over the stock wiring harness with CAN bus and all that stuff? I just don't think I can pull it off.  

I understand your limitations. Here's why I suggested something you said you don't want.  Any car that's in an accident had to be running when it occurred ( or things are really spooky).  You don't need to know how to fix the fuel injection system  just get one that can run.  Take everything and put it in your car.  Yeh, you'll have 20-50 pounds of wiring you don't need but it's easy to get rid of what isn't needed.  - or not?  

 I was a kid and knew nothing I bought a old hearse that had a fire in the engine compartment. But wires have color codes.  I tugged on the burnt end of the wire until I found someplace it was good ( Un-burnt) looked at what color and indentifying stripe 

then I traced it to the other un-burnt end, matched colors and stuck a piece of wife in between. 
I never knew what the wires did but everything works.  
If you aren't color blind you can do the same thing. Who cares what the wire does?  
 

a slightly harder way and messier is just take the whole wire bundle, coil it up and hide it.  

dherr
dherr HalfDork
12/10/19 1:19 p.m.
LanEvo said:

In reply to TurnerX19 :

Haha! I'm just trying to be realistic. I understand how carbs work (for the most part) and have the mechanical skill needed to get them running. I don't have the knowledge or skill to get EFI working ... and I can't afford to pay for labor on a Challenege budget. If I try to get too fancy, I'm afraid I'll never get the project done.

I think an Italian engine would be cool considering the TR4 is a Michelotti design. I'd prefer to use the FIAT 1.4 Turbo with Miata trans. But I have no idea how to deal with throttle by wire. Can you swap over the stock wiring harness with CAN bus and all that stuff? I just don't think I can pull it off.  

You don't need knowledge or skill to set up a EFI system (as long as it is stock). Can you hook up all the sensors (plug them in) and run power and ground to the computer? Also hook up a fuel line and pump? Then you are more than qualified to consider EFI engines. Seriously  they are easier, not tuning required and run so much better than a carb. I understand where you are coming from, but it is so much easier that I prefer it for all my projects. I will likely swap my TR4A to EFI when I start re-restoring it soon. 

It is easier if you stay away from the really modern stuff. CAN Bus systems and the like are going to make things way too complicated. I bolted my Miata motor and transmission into my Spitfire, wired it up and it fired right up. So stick with anything before the early 2000s and you will be fine.

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/10/19 1:20 p.m.
RichardSIA said:

FI (Fuel Infection) is a PITA, carbs are much simpler.

With a carb you can usually fix it very easily, even at the side of the road with minimal tools.

When FI has a problem you are truly stuck until you can diagnose it and obtain the new part.

I will never own another car with the fuel pump in the gas tank, which is SOP for FI.

Fixing a carb by the side of the road, well I've done it but it was a miracle. A buddies SU carb fell apart and it stumbled to a halt. We grabbed a couple of lanterns ( middle of the night) and walking back down the road found all the pieces ( except one) but luckily that was on the manifold.  

The thing is, modern Fuel injection?   It doesn't fall apart on the highway.  Older stuff yeh, sure. But you don't see Car-B-Ques anymore. 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
12/10/19 1:24 p.m.
dherr said:
LanEvo said:

In reply to TurnerX19 :

Haha! I'm just trying to be realistic. I understand how carbs work (for the most part) and have the mechanical skill needed to get them running. I don't have the knowledge or skill to get EFI working ... and I can't afford to pay for labor on a Challenege budget. If I try to get too fancy, I'm afraid I'll never get the project done.

I think an Italian engine would be cool considering the TR4 is a Michelotti design. I'd prefer to use the FIAT 1.4 Turbo with Miata trans. But I have no idea how to deal with throttle by wire. Can you swap over the stock wiring harness with CAN bus and all that stuff? I just don't think I can pull it off.  

You don't need knowledge or skill to set up a EFI system (as long as it is stock). Can you hook up all the sensors (plug them in) and run power and ground to the computer? Also hook up a fuel line and pump? Then you are more than qualified to consider EFI engines. Seriously  they are easier, not tuning required and run so much better than a carb. I understand where you are coming from, but it is so much easier that I prefer it for all my projects. I will likely swap my TR4A to EFI when I start re-restoring it soon.

He's right. A running system? Leave it alone. If it doesn't work you plug in a tester (parts stores lend them free)  it tells you what to replace. A quick look and that how to replace it. 
 

There are books that will tell you or better yet get someone familiar with your car to point out the pieces.  The hard stuff is already done for you. 

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
12/12/19 4:16 p.m.

Here's another option:

Found a TR3 rolling chassis complete with engine, trans, driveshaft, etc. for $800 about 100 miles away. I can take all the drivetrain components I need and sell the frame to recover some Challenge Buxx.

That's going to be easiest (probably also cheapest) option. But it's not exactly a cool story ... other than the fact that I may be able to build a TR4 for close to $0 

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy PowerDork
12/12/19 5:01 p.m.
LanEvo said:

Here's another option:

Found a TR3 rolling chassis complete with engine, trans, driveshaft, etc. for $800 about 100 miles away. I can take all the drivetrain components I need and sell the frame to recover some Challenge Buxx.

That's going to be easiest (probably also cheapest) option. But it's not exactly a cool story ... other than the fact that I may be able to build a TR4 for close to $0 

If High horsepower isn't one of your main goals, you should absolutely get that TR3 and swap it all over. It'll be your best way to running driving soon.

Remember, a car that runs and drives is 1,000% faster that a project car in the garage that's never completed.

Woody
Woody MegaDork
12/12/19 6:25 p.m.
LanEvo said:

Here's another option:

Found a TR3 rolling chassis complete with engine, trans, driveshaft, etc. for $800 about 100 miles away. I can take all the drivetrain components I need and sell the frame to recover some Challenge Buxx.

That's going to be easiest (probably also cheapest) option. But it's not exactly a cool story ... other than the fact that I may be able to build a TR4 for close to $0 

I'm pretty sure that I was looking at the same ad last night. I think that's really the smartest solution to your dilemma..

Robbie
Robbie MegaDork
12/12/19 6:32 p.m.

I'm very much in the same boat with my Datsun roadster right now. So, I have no advice but I understand.

LanEvo
LanEvo Dork
12/12/19 6:45 p.m.

In reply to Woody :

It's a FB ad from Connecticut. Contacted the seller just now. I might just go for it. 

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