2015+ Mustang GT, any competitive autoX class in SCCA?

I have a strong desire for the new Camaro SS 1LE, but it doesn't make sense to drive a factory built HPDE car to work everyday only to see the track a few times a year (this is what I'm telling myself), aside from knowing I'd have to carry track insurance and be ready for the big deductible.

So I'm thinking I'll get another Mustang GT, do a few tasteful mods (not ruin it with solid mounts, race spring rates, etc, like I did with my BRZ) and just enjoy having a nice, quick car and occasionally go play in a parking lot.

But definitely wouldn't be doing the whole nuts spring Rates on MCS or anything like that.

Thoughts?

Shocks + front swaybar + cat-back exhaust + BFG Rival Ss or Bridgestone RE71Rs = nationally competitive F Street car.

From what I've gathered from the people who autocross them there are a few things.

A) Avoid whatever package gives you the 3.73 gears (Remember the good ol' days when you could select individual options instead of having to get 50 things you don't want in a package to get the one option you do want? I digress.) It makes the gearing way too short and you end up bouncing back and forth between 2nd and 3rd the whole time.

B) Immediately throw the Pirelli tires it comes with right in the trash. They literally come apart under anything resembling hard driving. The last time I talked to the guy running one in F/S, he said the problem was that any of the really good tires had a smaller diameter, making his gearing even worse. Not sure if he found a solution or if the situation has improved any.

I've heard these things have factory line locks (or computer functionality for drag racing that uses the ABS computer to hold the front brakes only)? I think they also have launch control.

Launch control would be sweet in autox... Better still in pro-solo. Are people allowed to use it?

Testing those features seems like a good use of the factory Pirellis...

EDIT: Yes, yes, line locks are factory

JG Pasterjak wrote: Shocks + front swaybar + cat-back exhaust + BFG Rival Ss or Bridgestone RE71Rs = nationally competitive F Street car.

^^^^^^ That all day long.

I drove a friend's 15 GT (F-street prep) a couple weeks ago and was very surprised at how good it was. I paxed 6th running it in CAM-C, but would have had top pax by a couple of tenths if I had run it in FS.

NickD wrote: From what I've gathered from the people who autocross them there are a few things. A) Avoid whatever package gives you the 3.73 gears (Remember the good ol' days when you could select individual options instead of having to get 50 things you don't want in a package to get the one option you do want? I digress.) It makes the gearing way too short and you end up bouncing back and forth between 2nd and 3rd the whole time. B) Immediately throw the Pirelli tires it comes with right in the trash. They literally come apart under anything resembling hard driving. The last time I talked to the guy running one in F/S, he said the problem was that any of the really good tires had a smaller diameter, making his gearing even worse. Not sure if he found a solution or if the situation has improved any.

It's been years since I've read the SCCA rulebook, so how does the "Performance Pack" affect classing? Could I get the PP and swap back to the 3.31 gears (stock gearing), so I could have the stiffer front springs and rear sway and then add shocks? I know typically staggered helps promote understeer, would the wider rear tires/wheels help with getting power down?

Is it legal for STP? If so, should be very good there.

I'm going to have to download the rulebook and peruse the SCCA forums this weekend. I don't know how quickly I'll actually procure a new 'Stand (seems I still owe a bit more than I thought on one of my CC from the divorce, layoffs, moves, refurnishing an apt)

But want to go ahead and look into it and figured you folks could at least point me in the right direction.

z31maniac wrote:

NickD wrote: From what I've gathered from the people who autocross them there are a few things. A) Avoid whatever package gives you the 3.73 gears (Remember the good ol' days when you could select individual options instead of having to get 50 things you don't want in a package to get the one option you do want? I digress.) It makes the gearing way too short and you end up bouncing back and forth between 2nd and 3rd the whole time. B) Immediately throw the Pirelli tires it comes with right in the trash. They literally come apart under anything resembling hard driving. The last time I talked to the guy running one in F/S, he said the problem was that any of the really good tires had a smaller diameter, making his gearing even worse. Not sure if he found a solution or if the situation has improved any.

It's been years since I've read the SCCA rulebook, so how does the "Performance Pack" affect classing? Could I get the PP and swap back to the 3.31 gears (stock gearing), so I could have the stiffer front springs and rear sway and then add shocks? I know typically staggered helps promote understeer, would the wider rear tires/wheels help with getting power down?

I'm not certain if that would be legal (kinda sounds like it wouldn't) because I skipped Street and Street Touring and dived straight into the Street Prepared deep end.

z31maniac wrote: Could I get the PP and swap back to the 3.31 gears (stock gearing), so I could have the stiffer front springs and rear sway and then add shocks?

No.

Ricky Spanish wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Could I get the PP and swap back to the 3.31 gears (stock gearing), so I could have the stiffer front springs and rear sway and then add shocks?

No.

14.10 K. STP - Page 74 of the rulebook:

"STP - Any mechanical LSD unit is permitted. Final drive ring and pinion may be replaced with alternate parts."

They could have made that more clear by either putting "alternate ratio's/materials" or just "alternate materials"

Guess I'll have to see if I can find anything on the message boards about it.

Spoolpigeon wrote:

JG Pasterjak wrote: Shocks + front swaybar + cat-back exhaust + BFG Rival Ss or Bridgestone RE71Rs = nationally competitive F Street car.

^^^^^^ That all day long. I drove a friend's 15 GT (F-street prep) a couple weeks ago and was very surprised at how good it was. I paxed 6th running it in CAM-C, but would have had top pax by a couple of tenths if I had run it in FS.

This. And it was obnoxious ya big jerk.

Why would you pass on getting the new Camaro 1LE, but then get a Mustang GT? The new Camaro 1LE at this point is going to be the better car for autocross. Definitely don't get the previous gen Camaro though over the IRS GT.

If it's a cost issue then definitely get the Mustang GT used because these cars all just drop in value like a stone as soon as they come off the lot, but if you want the best car for autocross in the pony segment then the new Camaro is up there.

For classing I wouldn't run STP. It's been completely cannibalized by CAM. Run CAM and you can do whatever you want to the car. I've heard the older cars would eat up the front control arms doing autocross, but that was back in the r-compound stock days and I'm also not sure if the newer cars do the same. Definitely get one with the IRS.

For F-Street you have simplicity. You really can only do one swaybar (front or rear), shocks and then tires and wheels (+ or - 1" on diameter is really the only size change allowed) and catback (not even sure you want to bother). You can drive to and from the event on the tires and call it a day.

Harvey wrote: Why would you pass on getting the new Camaro 1LE, but then get a Mustang GT? The new Camaro 1LE at this point is going to be the better car for autocross. Definitely don't get the previous gen Camaro though over the IRS GT. If it's a cost issue then definitely get the Mustang GT used because these cars all just drop in value like a stone as soon as they come off the lot, but if you want the best car for autocross in the pony segment then the new Camaro is up there. For classing I wouldn't run STP. It's been completely cannibalized by CAM. Run CAM and you can do whatever you want to the car. I've heard the older cars would eat up the front control arms doing autocross, but that was back in the r-compound stock days and I'm also not sure if the newer cars do the same. Definitely get one with the IRS. For F-Street you have simplicity. You really can only do one swaybar (front or rear), shocks and then tires and wheels (+ or - 1" on diameter is really the only size change allowed). You can drive to and from the event on the tires and call it a day.

Well I said it right in the first sentence of the first post:

"I have a strong desire for the new Camaro SS 1LE, but it doesn't make sense to drive a factory built HPDE car to work everyday only to see the track a few times a year (this is what I'm telling myself), aside from knowing I'd have to carry track insurance and be ready for the big deductible."

I don't care about being a Nationally competitive driver, just go have fun.

There is also the difference in price. Locally there are base model, 6spd, Mustang GTs being advertised BELOW $30k. Cheapest 1LE I've seen advertised is nearly $43k.

That is a $14k dollar price difference for something that is going to be a commuter car 99.9% of the time.

Money isn't an issue, I could leave at lunch and go trade in the BRZ on the 1LE here in town and be done with it. I'm just wondering if I should considering I'm not going to dedicate the time/money to frequent HPDE's or AutoX multiple times per month like many do.

I got the first paragraph, but at the same time we then segued into talking about swapping gears on a GT to get 3.31s so I thought, if you're gonna go that far then just get the 1LE as once you start swapping gears you're into more modified classes. If you're gonna stay in Street then get the GT lightly used and do the basics.

If you really don't autocross much or track it then get the GT and stay street, but if you're the type that starts down the modification road because the car is not optimal for autocrossing I would just get the better car from the get go.

Harvey wrote: I got the first paragraph, but at the same time we then segued into talking about swapping gears on a GT to get 3.31s so I thought, if you're gonna go that far then just get the 1LE as once you start swapping gears you're into more modified classes. If you're gonna stay in Street then get the GT lightly used and do the basics. If you really don't autocross much or track it then get the GT and stay street, but if you're the type that starts down the modification road because the car is not optimal for autocrossing I would just get the better car from the get go.

To be honest, if I got the GT I'd probably just do some light mods to the car I wanted to do and just go play wherever it ended up. I was just curious if there was a good spot for it, and it appears F Street is that place.

That's too bad that CAM has cannibalized STP. As I was looking over the rules, that's basically exactly what I would want to do to the car. I'd want to go back to the 3.31s because I had the '13 Track Pack and 3.73s are just too short for a car with that much power.

Fat square wheel/tire setup, like 295 all around, Intake/Exhaust/Tune, decent suspension, then just enjoy it as a nice DD and occasional Auto-X'r.

But I could also do the same thing with an SS that isn't the 1L3.

Just a tough choice. #1stworldproblems really.

If you're just in it for fun a handful of times/year, buy what you want and run it in whatever class the stewards put you in. CAM isn't a bad place to be in most regions.

CAM has a softer PAX than STP last I checked, which is why nobody runs STP. IF they ever fix that, then STP would actually become a real class.

I'm looking at modding my 2011, and wanted to go to STP, but why would I do that when I'll post better PAX times in a class that allows more mods AND has more competition?

In reply to Harvey:

Mustang GTs do not depreciate that fast. You can easily pay as much for a used one as for a new one. I found this one that's been tempting me at Koons Ford in Baltimore. $27k plus freight ($1000) and paperwork charges means around $28,500 for a new GT. Show me a low mile 2017 GT whose value has "dropped like a stone," please as around here they're all $25k+ which is ridiculous if I can buy a new one for $28.5k.

Criminally softly classed in FS.

dculberson wrote: In reply to Harvey: Mustang GTs do *not* depreciate that fast. You can easily pay as much for a used one as for a new one. I found this one that's been tempting me at Koons Ford in Baltimore. $27k plus freight ($1000) and paperwork charges means around $28,500 for a new GT. Show me a low mile 2017 GT whose value has "dropped like a stone," please as around here they're all $25k+ which is ridiculous if I can buy a new one for $28.5k.

There was some, just a tad of, hyperbole in my statement when I said it drops like a stone as soon as you drive it off the lot. There is also a difference between what a dealer wants for the car and what they will actually get for it. If the new one is really only $28.5k and they want $27k then they aren't going to be selling it all that quickly.

Go to 2015, which is essentially the same car, find a low mileage one and you're at a pretty significant discount.

I mean, what's a new base GT Premium go for MSRP? $38k? Granted you wouldn't want to pay MSRP for one since you could probably get invoice with some shopping.

2015 GT Premium with 15k miles for $30500

2015 GT with Recaros with 19k miles for $29k

Granted you need to go to Jersey for that last one, but it also has the Recaros and even looks like a performance pack car which would put it above $40k new.

In reply to dculberson:

Ask and you shall receive

In reply to Harvey:

OK but if you don't want (or need) the Premium then why pay more for a used car than for a new one? Also, the $28500 was an "out the door" price on the $27k car with fees added in. The MSRP on that one is $34k so you're already at a $7k discount, buying brand new rather than two years old.

Bobzilla: It's less, but not much less, than the new one and it's a year old with 17k miles on it. I dunno, I think buying used should save you more than that.. I'd pay $28k for a new one way before I paid $25k for a used one with 17k miles on it.

z31maniac: Buy a new Mustang GT just so I can live vicariously through you. ;-)

In reply to Harvey:

OK, so apples to apples, here's a brand new 2017 GT premium for $34k. That's two years newer and with zero miles versus your $30k one. New seems like a no brainer to me there.

In reply to dculberson:

I've seen them in the low 20's but they usually sell fast. I wouldn't expect to pay more than $22k for the one posted. That's a $6k difference... and $6k buts lots of tires.