Nashco
Nashco UberDork
3/27/14 9:04 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: Dude, that shirt your wife is wearing. Is it hers? I went to school there 2000-2005.

It's hers, but she didn't go to school there, I did. Graduated in '04, mostly A section.

Bryce

tuna55
tuna55 PowerDork
3/27/14 9:30 a.m.
Nashco wrote:
tuna55 wrote: Dude, that shirt your wife is wearing. Is it hers? I went to school there 2000-2005.
It's hers, but she didn't go to school there, I did. Graduated in '04, mostly A section. Bryce

yeah - I know you. PM to be sent.

nderwater
nderwater PowerDork
3/27/14 10:00 a.m.

I just got a quote from the local Ford dealer on a Focus Electric, and I've got to say I'm a little disappointed. The lease price I was quoted was $408/mo over 36 months with $0 down and 10,500 miles/year. Total lease cost over three years would be $14,688.

Even with the leather option (which every local dealer seems to be ordering) Ford.com lists the Focus Electric at $35,170 / $26,240 after rebates and incentives, netting a $179/mo lease over 36 months with $3,699 down and 10,500 miles/year. Fold the down payment into the monthly payment, and the net is $282/mo... $126/mo less than I was quoted. Total lease costs over three years using the Ford.com numbers is $10,143 +tax, title and fees. There's no way tax, tile and fees adds $4,545 is there?

Right now Nissan is quoting Leaf 36 month leases starting from $199/mo with $1,999 down, or $9,163 +tax, title and fees. That's only a grand more than Ford quotes for the Focus, a car I would much rather drive--if only I could get the Focus for anywhere near the price that Ford is quoting.

tuna55
tuna55 PowerDork
3/27/14 10:08 a.m.

In reply to nderwater:

I will say only that after shopping a few EVs, it is apparent that Nissan is really the only mainline auto manufacturer that is trying to sell an electric car. The rest seem to do so under duress, because the deals are not there, the inventory is not there, and in most cases the design is not there.

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe Dork
3/27/14 10:53 a.m.

4.02 a gallon today, your wish is true. At least in California.

Nashco
Nashco UberDork
3/27/14 12:42 p.m.
nderwater wrote: I just got a quote from the local Ford dealer on a Focus Electric, and I've got to say I'm a little disappointed.

Car dealers are car dealers. First and foremost, if ford.com publishes X price, print it out and bring it in with you as a starting point or use the dealer's internet sales tool linked directly to it to take things to the next step. Secondly, it's generally accepted that very few car dealers start at their bottom dollar, especially if you're being very casual in your purchase investigation. Spend a day, go test drive a few different cars at different local dealers, make it clear that you're ready to spend money for the right deal on the right car, and tell each dealer to write down the best deal they can offer you as you are literally going to X dealers that day. If they know you're ready to act on the best deal and that you'll immediately have multiple deals offered, they're likely to cut the balogna and put in a decent bid (that will at least match what ford.com/nissanusa.com/whatever advertise, likely beat it).

Car dealers are car dealers, the same BS process is required whether it's a Focus EV or a Camaro ZL1. When I got my Leaf, we got a rate significantly better than advertised rates using the method I suggested. I clarified with each that I wanted a 24 month lease and they should assume I've got perfect credit in their offer, no need for credit checks when you're still in basic discussions. With my Spark EV, I paid MSRP (minus GM friends and family discount) with no expectations of haggling as I was ordering a car that wasn't even in existence yet on any showroom floor and it was an outright purchase rather than a lease.

Also, don't limit yourself to your local dealer for a purchase. Call other dealers, including those that people on internet forums are getting great deals from. For example, dealers in California, Maryland, Oregon, etc. with zero emission vehicle mandates probably have much better deals they can offer...even after shipping a vehicle you might still come out ahead due to regional pricing differences.

Bryce

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltraDork
3/27/14 12:44 p.m.
Nashco wrote:
tuna55 wrote: Dude, that shirt your wife is wearing. Is it hers? I went to school there 2000-2005.
It's hers, but she didn't go to school there, I did. Graduated in '04, mostly A section. Bryce

<--- B Section, 2006

tuna55
tuna55 PowerDork
3/27/14 12:51 p.m.
ProDarwin wrote:
Nashco wrote:
tuna55 wrote: Dude, that shirt your wife is wearing. Is it hers? I went to school there 2000-2005.
It's hers, but she didn't go to school there, I did. Graduated in '04, mostly A section. Bryce
<--- B Section, 2006

Crikey. I had no idea.

nderwater
nderwater PowerDork
3/27/14 1:19 p.m.

Thanks Bryce. You followed your Leaf with a Spark EV. Why the change, and would you recommend the Spark?

bastomatic
bastomatic SuperDork
3/27/14 5:25 p.m.

I was cross shopping the Focus EV. Nobody and I mean NOBODY had them on the lots to check out in southeast Michigan 6 months ago. That said, they are more expensive than the Leaf, and one look at a photo of the cargo room was all it took to cross it off the list.

That's 14 cubic feet in the hatch, vs the Leaf's 24.

Nashco
Nashco UberDork
3/27/14 7:28 p.m.
nderwater wrote: Thanks Bryce. You followed your Leaf with a Spark EV. Why the change, and would you recommend the Spark?

When we got the Leaf, it was intended to be her daily driver. At that time (Fall 2012) the Leaf was the only option on the market for an EV with a DC fast charger at a reasonable price/value. The Volt didn't appeal to her because she wanted more all electric range and we don't have any range anxiety to deal with. She's not in love with the Leaf, but it's been a great appliance. I've wanted a Spark EV ever since they started releasing the specs. The car is all about value performance...the power to weight to dollar ratio is by far the best for an EV.

They're very different cars. The Spark EV is an EV hot hatch. It's not as "cute" as the Fiat 500e, but it's very similar in size, faster, and has DC fast charging. It's not as "comfy" as the Leaf, which has more seatbelts, more space, and a nicer interior...as you'd expect from a family car. So, if you're looking for a mom-mobile, the Leaf is the way to go. If you want a hot hatch, the Spark EV is the way to go. If you want a zippy cute car, get a Smart Electric Drive or a Fiat 500e. If you want slightly more refined (or a range extender), get a BMW i3. If you're tired of sitting on a pile of money, the Tesla Model S is the obvious solution.

In case you haven't seen my build thread on the Spark EV, that might offer some more insight:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/2014-chevrolet-spark-ev-an-affordable-electric-racecar/80158/page1/

It's great that there's more selection for EVs all the time, as we all have different interests!

Bryce

Nashco
Nashco UberDork
3/27/14 7:30 p.m.

Oh yeah, and to be clear, we have both a Leaf and a Spark EV. His and hers EV daily drivers!

Bryce

Nashco
Nashco UberDork
3/28/14 6:34 p.m.

I'm pretty surprised nobody commented on driving 720 miles in one weekend without spending a dime on fuel. For being such a bunch of cheapskates around here, I figured that would have perked up a few ears.

For those that might have missed it:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/400gallon-gas-coming-bring-it-on/68941/page13/#post1477915

Bryce

bastomatic
bastomatic SuperDork
3/29/14 8:08 a.m.

I missed that Bryce. I'm envious of your charger network, and I would pay fees to use that kind of thing around here. I haven't seen any new charge points added locally in the past 6 months actually, which seems crazy considering how many Volts I see driving around here.

Here's a comparison for you. I recently checked out the charging situation in Ferndale, a suburb of Detroit locally known for its great night life scene and Eco friendly community. The situation was not impressive.

Chris_V
Chris_V UltraDork
3/29/14 9:28 a.m.
Datsun1500 wrote:
Nashco wrote: I'm pretty surprised nobody commented on driving 720 miles in one weekend without spending a dime on fuel. For being such a bunch of cheapskates around here, I figured that would have perked up a few ears. For those that might have missed it: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/400gallon-gas-coming-bring-it-on/68941/page13/#post1477915 Bryce
Just because you didn't spend money on fuel, does not mean it was free. Did you thank the people that provided you electricity? I saw you were disappointed that charging stations were now going to have fees, why shouldn't they? You didn't drive 720 miles for free, you drove 720 miles on someone else's $$$.

it may have been someone else's electricity, but the total cost to them was vastly less than gas cost would have been. For example I drove my Volt for a year and 12k miles, and used about $10 in electricity per month and I ONLY used MY electricity to do so. Seriously, his trip used up less than $10 of electricity, spread out over all the recharge points he used. NO one was put out by that sort of cost.

Vigo
Vigo PowerDork
3/29/14 10:09 a.m.

I suggest you not go down this hole. The petroleum infrastructure you (and all of us) use has been subsidized 6 ways to Sunday for over a century and has enough unseen costs and consequences to fill a 10000 page report. We, as the grand sum of a species of 7,000,000,000 sentient beings, still don't even KNOW how to fully account for the costs incurred when you buy a gallon of gas.

Nashco
Nashco UberDork
3/29/14 2:07 p.m.

Note that I said we/I didn't pay a dime to charge, it was free to me. That's a fact. Every bit of that electricity was paid for with private money, if that's the angle you think you're working. AeroVironment, Nissan, and my uncle paid for that $16 worth of electricity. How far does $16 worth of gas get you? Where do you get your privately paid for but free to you gas?

Seemed like a good deal to me, I'm not going to pass up the opportunity if it comes up again!

Bryce

pjbgravely
pjbgravely New Reader
3/29/14 9:21 p.m.
Datsun1500 wrote:
Nashco wrote: I'm pretty surprised nobody commented on driving 720 miles in one weekend without spending a dime on fuel....
It must be nice living where electricity is free but where I live it is $.14 a Kwh. It would be nice to have a mile per Kwh rating so that people who have to pay for electricity will know how much charging it will cost. I don't know if is cheaper than gasoline but I do know that for heating with propane or oil at $4 a gallon is still cheaper than electricity. If you use a lot of household electricity they can put you on a demand meter which can prevent you from afford charging during the day.
bastomatic
bastomatic SuperDork
3/30/14 6:55 a.m.

In reply to pjbgravely:

I believe nissan gives a 2.9 miles/kWh figure. The car has an instant miles/kWh readout in addition, but from what I have read online, it is terribly inaccurate.

My utility installed a second meter with my level 2 charge station at home. Next month I will check the kWh against miles driven, and give an accurate number. My utility also offers a reduced night rate for EV owners - 0.08 cents a kWh.

Vigo
Vigo PowerDork
3/30/14 10:24 a.m.
It would be nice to have a mile per Kwh rating

Manufacturers publish these numbers for their cars and lots of people are doing their own math too. So if you're looking at the OEM stuff it's fairly easy to get a good number.

pjbgravely
pjbgravely Reader
3/30/14 11:16 a.m.

In reply to bastomatic:

If I did the math correctly, at 2.9 miles per Kwh, driving 100 mile at $.14 Kwh gives me $14 total cost. Using my cars lifetime mpg of 25, and the current cost of fuel at $3.80 a gallon, gives my average cost of driving 100 miles at $15.20. This makes the electric car a better value.

In the coldest part of the winter driving in below 0 F temps and through snow my car dropped to 21mpg. I doubt if the electric car's range would stay at 1/2 it's summer distance in such conditions.

There maybe some law that helps people with an electric car but where I live if you have night rate, your day rate goes up. If you get a second meter like you have it will cost $25 a month just for the meter. There are areas where I live that have REA or co-ops and they pay $.04 a Kwh ( the true cost of electricity) In those areas they have electric everything.

I wonder how expensive EV cars will be in 10 years? I bought my car at 9 years old for $6K. I have drove it for 5 years and will probably DD it for 2 more. Only time will tell if they hold their value and be unaffordable for people in lower incomes.

tuna55
tuna55 PowerDork
3/30/14 12:06 p.m.

fyi I am seeing close to 4.6 miles per kwh on the dash, Obviously the charger will use more than that, but I don't have a definitive number.

Vigo
Vigo PowerDork
3/30/14 2:41 p.m.

One thing to keep in mind is that competition between petroleum providers is MUCH more intense than it is between electricity providers. That can be changed. Quickly? No. But there are plenty of laws that could be changed to force utilities to compete more intensely and be more accountable to ratepayers. Encouraging people to do the math and compare their electricity provider to providers in other areas, or providers of other types of energy, is where it starts.

In general, whenever i go into EV threads and see people 'doing the math', i consider it progress even if they're not coming up with a wildly pro-ev result. We're building informed consumers.

bastomatic
bastomatic SuperDork
3/30/14 9:36 p.m.
pjbgravely wrote: In reply to bastomatic: If I did the math correctly, at 2.9 miles per Kwh, driving 100 mile at $.14 Kwh gives me $14 total cost. Using my cars lifetime mpg of 25, and the current cost of fuel at $3.80 a gallon, gives my average cost of driving 100 miles at $15.20. This makes the electric car a better value. In the coldest part of the winter driving in below 0 F temps and through snow my car dropped to 21mpg. I doubt if the electric car's range would stay at 1/2 it's summer distance in such conditions.

Your math is wrong for the EV. The cost for 100 miles with your rate would be about $4.83. That's about $100 a month in fuel cost savings if you're driving the 12,000 miles a year most leases assume.

For winter range, I can personally say that in the worst parts of this winter in Detroit, I had about 50 miles of range total, as compared with about 90 on a perfect day.

As for your other question, we are seeing 2011 leafs off lease selling for about $14k or less at auction, some with under 10k miles.

Vigo
Vigo PowerDork
3/30/14 10:49 p.m.

I work at an auction and im kind of flabbergasted as to why I-mievs are selling so high. They seem to be averaging close to 14 too. They sell brand new for 15!

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