$4.00/gallon gas coming? Bring it on...

Klayfish wrote:

Datsun1500 wrote: How much electricity does it take to do a full charge?

According to the cars' computer, it seems to take about 6-7 kwh for me to charge from 40% to 90%. For the month of August, I've used a total of 61.7kwh, which equates to about $5.20

So what does that work out to in $ per mile not including lease costs?

And again, but with lease costs?

My XJ is $0.20 a mile without lease costs and $0.20 a mile with lease costs. I'd be interested how a Leaf would compare to see if it would actually pay for itself.

GameboyRMH wrote: BTW I like how you Americans are afraid of $4/gal gas. That's so cute, let me know when it hits $7

I pay $8.45.

This pain is somewhat alleviated in my being able to ride the entire length of Korea, in silence and comfort, at 186 mph and with lovely scenery for about $40.

Oh, and I drive about three times a week most weeks.

I dont want to live in a world where i drive less. It's one of my main enjoyments in life. I will leave the USA if they make driving too onerous. My loyalty is to my own happiness and probably too much of it comes from driving!

Do you live in a place with no traffic?

Gas at $4/gallon will make your electric bill go through the roof with fuel "surcharges"

You will feel it more than most I think.

I'm coming up on a year with the Mustang, but I was cross-shopping it against the Volt. The Volt makes a ton of sense for my lifestyle (25 - 40 miles a day commute, but no tolerance for range anxiety). I just couldn't make the numbers work. If I could have gone all-in for $250 a month I'd have done it (and it being "weird" is one reason it's one of the few cars I'd rather lease than own). There were leases elsewhere in the country that would have worked, but the local dealers either wouldn't or couldn't match them. So I bought the Mustang. It's infinitely more grins per mile, but I still like the idea of the Volt. In the last year I've started playing music again and the Mustang will not hold an upright bass. The Volt, being a hatchback, probably will. So I may end up playing that game again at some point.

And yeah - work said "no problem" about running an extension cord out to the car, so I'd do most of my charging on their dime.

Do you live in a place with no traffic?

Sort of. There is certainly traffic in certain areas at certain times (i live in the 7th biggest city in USA), but i avoid those places at those times. I also RARELY have to worry about inclement weather ruining my driving fun (although i certainly wish it would rain more often). To be honest im very confused by all the people who claim to be driving enthusiasts and then choose to live in places where is un-fun or flat out dangerous to drive 'enthusiastically' for huge portions of their life. But, im an outlier. Im deeper into this car thing than most people even on car forums. That's why i own 14 and learned how to fix pretty much everything and wont move to a place where i dont have room for 10 cars, or a place with bad weather or bad traffic or even emissions testing (even though i drive a SULEV vehicle as a DD). I literally have prioritized huge parts of my life around how much of my fun comes from cars.

Vigo wrote: I dont want to live in a world where i drive less. It's one of my main enjoyments in life. I will leave the USA if they make driving too onerous. My loyalty is to my own happiness and probably too much of it comes from driving!

I just interviewed at a place in a city with good transportation and the company offers a free monthly transit pass as a benefit.

Commutes in heavy traffic suck. Let a guy like Wally take care of it and I think I'll find driving is fun again(on my weekends)

Vigo wrote: To be honest im very confused by all the people who claim to be driving enthusiasts and then choose to live in places where is un-fun or flat out dangerous to drive 'enthusiastically' for huge portions of their life. But, im an outlier. Im deeper into this car thing than most people even on car forums.

To be honest, I'm very confused by people who drive "enthusiastically" on the street instead of taking it to a road course or Auto-X.

Like Keith has mentioned before, cars are great fun, but they aren't the only thing in life.

To be honest, I'm very confused by people who drive "enthusiastically" on the street instead of taking it to a road course or Auto-X.

And im confused by THAT. If you're looking for a guilt trip, don't waste your time. I have a better record of not hurting anyone than every single person who's ever commented on my driving, as far as i know. It's not really possible for anyone to speak from higher ground since you cant hurt less people than i have (0). I've seen many more examples of people hurting each other and themselves on road courses and autocrosses than i've ever caused on the street. I know the world is full of people with poor skills and poor judgment who make all sorts of painful mistakes on the street before finding track-jesus and swearing off whatever probably-false thing they defensively attribute their failings to, but i'm not one of them. I stay inside my limits and have fun while maintaining a 100% perfect record of not hurting anyone. Sucks to be anyone else, but that's not my problem.

Hell, my wife just ran a red light and t-boned someone and my dad just fell off his bike and broke 4 ribs and a clavicle. Neither one of them are 'enthusiastic drivers'. Why oh why weren't they spared?! Maybe it's because the vast majority of unfortunate vehicle incidents can be traced down to a laundry list of contributing factors that all rank higher than the 'enthusiasm' of the drivers, like, oh, judgment and competence in controlling the vehicle.

I have other hobbies which i try to keep off of this forum since they mostly aren't welcome, but you can see some of them poking through the veil in my posts here now and then.

Vigo wrote: To be honest im very confused by all the people who claim to be driving enthusiasts and then choose to live in places where is un-fun or flat out dangerous to drive 'enthusiastically' for huge portions of their life.

This is why the hometown for GRM has always confused the berkeley out of me. Three months of Tampa was enough, and Orlando isn't much better.

IMO the best location is NC. Mountains and VIR just a day away. No salt, cheap living, and you can shop Atlanta craigslist with a free weekend.

In reply to Vigo:

Different strokes?

I like cars. I spend more time and money than I should on them. I also get effing sick of them now and then and want to sell everything and become a cycling monk. If I based everything I did on my car hobby, I'd go effing insane. I like mtns. I like snow. I like it to be cold once in awhile. I like being forced to put the cars away for a few months each year and focus on other things. I like those first few days of Spring when I get the classic cars out for the first time. I like those cool days in the Fall when the leaves are changing and I don't mind the heat of the GT6 burning off my right foot. I don't care for the middle of Summer when the GT6 and Mini become saunas. The last thing I'd want is to live somewhere where "Summer" lasted 6 months (or more) each year.

Vigo wrote:

Do you live in a place with no traffic?

Sort of. There is certainly traffic in certain areas at certain times (i live in the 7th biggest city in USA), but i avoid those places at those times. I also RARELY have to worry about inclement weather ruining my driving fun (although i certainly wish it would rain more often). To be honest im very confused by all the people who claim to be driving enthusiasts and then choose to live in places where is un-fun or flat out dangerous to drive 'enthusiastically' for huge portions of their life.

I like racing and I like canyons. Getting cabbage, I'll do whatever's most convenient. Going to a meeting that requires a three hour highway slog - I'd rather take the train (though that could be because my car is a ridiculously stiff riding study in highspeed droning sounds). Honestly, I'm kind of weening myself from canyons. I'm super-duper ultra competitive and it's simply not safe to drive as hard as I want to on ANY public road.

But, im an outlier. Im deeper into this car thing than most people even on car forums. That's why i own 14 and learned how to fix pretty much everything and wont move to a place where i dont have room for 10 cars, or a place with bad weather or bad traffic or even emissions testing (even though i drive a SULEV vehicle as a DD). I literally have prioritized huge parts of my life around how much of my fun comes from cars.

Don't you find this ...

considerably more fun than this?

Honestly, I find track stuff exhilarating. It's like an hour solid of overdosing on heroine. Commuting is kind of stressful, by comparison.

This is why the hometown for GRM has always confused the berkeley out of me. Three months of Tampa was enough, and Orlando isn't much better.

I would say florida is slightly better than Texas just because i think it does rain there. Not sure how to quantify the difference between 86% and 100% humidity at 100f except that when it's 100% humidity in florida, it probably also rains some so i think that balances out.

If I based everything I did on my car hobby, I'd go effing insane

That must be why the word everything never came into the picture here.

The last thing I'd want is to live somewhere where "Summer" lasted 6 months (or more) each year.

Well, i dont like long summers either but that's because i dont have an air conditioned garage. Summer is too damn hot to work on the cars. It's 85% downtime on projects for that reason. Fall, 'winter', and spring are the productive seasons here.

(though that could be because my car is a ridiculously stiff riding study in highspeed droning sounds)... I'm super-duper ultra competitive and it's simply not safe to drive as hard as I want to on ANY public road.

I dont have any super loud cars and don't have a competitive bone in my body. I find it extremely easy to drive in a way that is both satisfying and safe on a regular basis. Certainly safer than 10/10ths on a road course!! I think the thing about being jaded comes into play. I wont build anything that isn't fun to drive the way i actually want to drive it. There is a way to build a car that would make it totally unrewarding for my usage. It may also make it perform REALLY WELL under circumstances i'll rarely run into, but that is nearly useless to me. I think a lot of enthusiasts put a lot of value on objective measures and convince themselves they like the idea of a car with such high limits that you can't do anything approaching them during 99.99% of your life. These (huge number of people) are the 'size queens' of the car world and they often buy and build their way right OUT of a good time by adopting standards that arent based on their own lives and experiences. TONS of car enthusiasts dont 'get' what i own or what i do, but that's because it's all very honestly catered to what i actually enjoy and how i actually drive, and that is super confusing to a lot of cookie cutter enthusiasts out there.

Needs more kilowatts.

I got a great lease quote on a Leaf this afternoon. If it's real, I may move on it as soon as the weekend, thanks for the kick in the pants.

Vigo wrote: I dont have any super loud cars and don't have a competitive bone in my body. I find it extremely easy to drive in a way that is both satisfying and safe on a regular basis. Certainly safer than 10/10ths on a road course!! I think the thing about being jaded comes into play. I wont build anything that isn't fun to drive the way i actually want to drive it. There is a way to build a car that would make it totally unrewarding for my usage. It may also make it perform REALLY WELL under circumstances i'll rarely run into, but that is nearly useless to me. I think a lot of enthusiasts put a lot of value on objective measures and convince themselves they like the idea of a car with such high limits that you can't do anything approaching them during 99.99% of your life. These (huge number of people) are the 'size queens' of the car world and they often buy and build their way right OUT of a good time by adopting standards that arent based on their own lives and experiences. TONS of car enthusiasts dont 'get' what i own or what i do, but that's because it's all very honestly catered to what i actually enjoy and how i actually drive, and that is super confusing to a lot of cookie cutter enthusiasts out there.

To address your previous point about not understanding how people who want to drive less can call themselves car enthusiasts, I think the answer is pretty clear.

The stuff you describe enjoying about cars is absolutely not the stuff I enjoy about cars. 6/10ths on the street isn't fun for me. I'd describe 6/10ths on the street as more of a cock-tease than a rewarding activity.

The reason I like performance cars are as follows:

1. I like using my head to gain advantages on competitors who are just using their pocketbooks. Cars are complicated and inherently compromised. This means there is a lot of cheap headroom available to people like me who are willing to think outside the box.

2. I like the danger. I like knowing that if I berkeley up there's a chance I could go backwards into a wall at 100 mph. It makes the adrenaline real rather than abstract. I like getting out of my car, reflecting on what I've just done and thinking "I must not be Bob Costas."

3. I like making a car dance. I like the feeling I get when the car squirms right at the edge of traction, kisses the apex and four wheel drifts to the outside curb.

4. I like hitting that zone of concentration so deep, so absolute that you can no longer hear anything except the engine and tires, you can no longer see anything you don't need to see - when the rhythm of your breathing and the movement of the machine cleanse you of all distractions and leave you pure, in the moment, clean.

I think you'll agree that numbers 2,3 and 4 are deeply anti-social and should not happen on public roads. I also think you'll agree they are addicting. This is how I'm a car enthusiast without enjoying rush hour. None of these things require the car be fast or have .2 inches of ground clearance, but they do all require 10/10ths driving.

BTW, I agree with you about the objective goals in cars. The fastest car I've ever driven for any length of time was a supercharged LS1 Camaro. This car had won the Virginia City Hillclimbs one year. It had r-comp rubber, 550-ish horsepower, all kinds of suspension gubbins and a cage. It was also one of the least fun to drive cars I've ever been in. It wouldn't dance and it sure as hell didn't want to talk. And I couldn't see out of the damn thing.

In reply to DaewooOfDeath:

I pretty much agree. I'm not super-competitive, but there's definitely a competitive streak in me.

Right now, my competitive outlet is autocross, so my opinion about potential cars for me is skewed by how the car will work in that environment, what class it's in and whether it's competitive in that class. There are certain cars that are totally dismissed from consideration simply because they are woefully uncompetitive in their class. While that may make no sense to many of you, it is important to me. Part of the reason for my E30 hatred is the car is such a terrible autocross car without more modifications than I care to do to it.

In a way, my TDi is fun to drive despite being bone stock simply because it's such an exceptional tool for the task at hand. It also doesn't lend itself to speeding or overly aggressive driving, which is good for keeping license points down and my money out of the coffers of the various municipalities I drive through every day.

Plus... I drive through HEAVY deer country... and rutting season will start soon when deer go extra-stupid when crossing the roads. At this point, the TDi is somewhat "expendable" vs. something more interesting.

z31maniac wrote:

Vigo wrote: To be honest im very confused by all the people who claim to be driving enthusiasts and then choose to live in places where is un-fun or flat out dangerous to drive 'enthusiastically' for huge portions of their life. But, im an outlier. Im deeper into this car thing than most people even on car forums.

To be honest, I'm very confused by people who drive "enthusiastically" on the street instead of taking it to a road course or Auto-X. Like Keith has mentioned before, cars are great fun, but they aren't the only thing in life.

It the same reason why I ride my streetbike MUCH more than my dirtbike. I love to ride, but getting to a place that I can really ride my dirtbike, other than our back 10, requires planning, work, free-time, etc. However, I can hop on my streetbike, roll out of the garage, and be on some pretty decent backroads immediatly and have a good ride during my commute. Same thing with cars....no decent roadcourse track near me and the closest one rarely puts on events. I get my track time generally by taking one of the bikes to the dragstrip, which is over an hour, but still closer than any roadcourse.

I got a great lease quote on a Leaf this afternoon. If it's real, I may move on it as soon as the weekend, thanks for the kick in the pants.

Very cool! I met up with a guy from another forum and drove his Leaf yesterday as well. Now i know what im missing and what im not. I honestly think for me, hybrids are still a better fit. I get too much enjoyment from high-speed romping (not THAT high, <110mph 99% of the time) and the Leaf is pretty weak up there in addition to probably suffering massive range loss if you spend a lot of time at 70+. It's pretty strong from low speeds but past 65 its acceleration is weak. Knowing that you're throwing range out the window and turning the car into a naysayer's dream with a 35 mile range would totally ruin the fun of high speed driving for me.

It the same reason why I ride my streetbike MUCH more than my dirtbike. I love to ride, but getting to a place that I can really ride my dirtbike, other than our back 10, requires planning, work, free-time, etc. However, I can hop on my streetbike, roll out of the garage, and be on some pretty decent backroads immediatly and have a good ride during my commute. Same thing with cars...

Yep, same concept.

What's funny is that while there are people who think my driving is scary, i actually consider myself to be WAAAAY safer than the majority of car enthusiasts, EVEN the ones who wont go fast on the street! I will not get on a motorcycle, and (especially relevant to DaewooOfDeath's #2), my brief experience on a road course leads me to believe i would not be able to enjoy it due to the danger TO MYSELF. I would have to spend a lot of time and money on safety equipment just to get to a place i consider 'reasonably safe' but the value return would be total E36 M3 because i would only benefit from that car/effort/money during a tiny, narrow range of circumstances. Im a big lover of street cars (and pactical, utilitarian cars, honestly) and my opinion of a car goes down the more impractical it bceomes for me. I think that ties into Irish's statement about his opinion of cars being weighted by their competitiveness in autocross. What is important to some people is just NOT important to others.

I guess all i can say is that im VERY glad that my enjoyment comes from things i can do CONSTANTLY, in almost ANY car, for VERY little money, and it's hard for me to imagine scaling my car hobby down to something that i could only enjoy a handful of days out of only one portion of the year while simultaneously dumping a ton more money into way less cars.

100+? regularly? Yeah, count me out of that noise on the street. I'm probably as safe or safer than you at those speeds, but the risk of a ticket is just too great. And to top it off, my commute is on surface streets that have a speed limit of 30-45 mph, (with speed cameras in 2 spots) and 100+ is right out. For me, the Volt worked out better than the Leaf. I've daily driven for the last 5 months with no gas at all and MAYBE $10-15 in electricity each month. BUT, unlike the Leaf, I was able to take the Volt on a 960 mile round trip from Baltimore to central CT and never had to worry about charging it up.

Secondly, compared to my old $300/month '06 Mustang, I'm saving $200 a moint in fuel bills, and compared to my paid off BMW 740iL, I'm breaking even (fuel costs and maintenance costs vs the bnew car payment). So it makes sense.

Vigo wrote: I get too much enjoyment from high-speed romping (not THAT high, <110mph 99% of the time) and the Leaf is pretty weak up there in addition to probably suffering massive range loss if you spend a lot of time at 70+. It's pretty strong from low speeds but past 65 its acceleration is weak.

Right, the Leaf isn't great at highways speeds. It'll do it...Nissan says top speed is limited to 90mph so I guess it'd rule you out anyway ...but it's happier at sub 60mph. The low speed (0-50mph) acceleration is pretty damn strong, but not as much at highway speeds. Battery also loses power faster. Like I mentioned, I drove it home from the dealer. 80% was highway. I went 63 miles and probably had 10-15 left before it would have run out. But for me, 90-95% of my driving is suburban roads at speeds under 55mph, so it makes sense. For my rare jounts on the highway I'd drive something else. Oh, and I agree that you can count me out of the high speeds on the street. Not that I drive like granny, but I'm not "aggressive".

Chris,
Definitely an advantage with the Volt. You can take a long trip, I can't. For me, it came down to money. The Volt lease was much more than the Leaf, and the Leaf can handle my needs with few exceptions. On those rare times, I'll just grab the family truckster.

Tuna55, let me know how it works out. Good luck!!

In reply to Vigo:

I'm the autocross-centric guy, not irish.

Personally, my time and diverse interests often make me want to reduce the number of cars I have some I can devote more time and effort to each one, rather than having myself spread out so thin.

Hell... I'm in preliminary dicussions about doing an "arrive and drive" deal next season for autocross in lieu of running my own car. Especially since it would be a chance to learn and drive a type of car I want to buy anyway (F500). Considering I plan to be eyeball deep in a house renovation next year, this may be the only way I'd be able to run.

As far as speeding goes... well... I'll admit to occasional 100+ runs on I-95 once in awhile... and anytime I'm on the PATP going to the other office is usally done in the left lane at 90+ (which is actually the normal flow of traffic speed). But both roads are lightly patrolled during rush-hour and once I'm off the hwy, my speeds are pretty sedate and close to the posted limit.

Edit to try to keep this back on topic:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130822/CARREVIEWS/130829950?utm_source=DailyDrive20130822&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=article6&utm_content=20130822-Two-hot-laps-in-the-Nissan-Leaf-Nismo-RC&utm_campaign=awdailydrive

I want an electric car for my commute. I want one bad.

But my commute is 60 miles round trip (closer to 70 if I leave the office for lunch or run errands), and my employer said that charging an EV at the office is no bueno. I also have to drive over two mountains between home and work, so that would drastically reduce the EV's range.

I am eagerly awaiting the next generation of electric cars in the hopes that they will have ranges approaching that of Tesla's.

I would totally rock a Chevy Volt, but it costs more than my Mustang. And it's a Chevy.