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Rupert
Rupert Dork
2/25/15 10:38 a.m.

I've been reading with interest the ongoing discussions of how a specific ride should or shouldn't be outlawed for autocross for safety reasons if it raises its' inside tire(s)in corners.

The March/April Road & Track cover should get this question heated up again. An Audi S 3 is shown exiting a corner with both inside tires probably a foot or more off the tarmac. Yes based on the curbings, the car is on a race track. But the car is claimed to be totally stock. Should the new Audi S 3 now be made illegal in stock autocrosses?

yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
2/25/15 10:44 a.m.

In reply to Rupert:

Did it ramp over a section of curbing?

As far as autoxing goes, scca doesn't seem all that concerned about DSP, and they can do this..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLHfiTKspC4

Rupert
Rupert Dork
2/25/15 11:12 a.m.

Yes, it probably did ramp off the curbing. I just watched the link & that DSP car looks to be at a similar height as this appears to be.

But the threads I've read about are for safety concerns in STOCK CLASSES. I've seen a ton of Minis, GTI Rabbits, and other stock class cars raise a wheel or occasionally two, over the years. But all winter I've read pros & cons of allowing that to continue with specific cars in stock classes.
What is now allowed in STOCK CLASS? And specifically will this stock Audi S 3 be legal in a stock class, was my question.

yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
2/25/15 11:26 a.m.

In reply to Rupert:

It probably will.....there is a certain point where 99.99% of people cannot replicate the acts of the .01% hamfist segment.

chrispy
chrispy HalfDork
2/25/15 11:48 a.m.

I had to google the image.

I think what is being shown here is unlikely to occur on an autox course in a stock S3. It makes for a neat picture though.

yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
2/25/15 11:50 a.m.

It ramped the curbing in the corner.....nothing to see here

Rupert
Rupert Dork
2/25/15 12:06 p.m.

In reply to chrispy:I agree.

chrispy
chrispy HalfDork
2/25/15 12:12 p.m.

To answer your original question, I don't see why the S3 would be banned from stock class unless it violates the SCCA's height/width rule (rollover risk rule).

850Combat
850Combat New Reader
2/25/15 12:17 p.m.

I was told years ago that my DSP car had air under both tires at a Sand and sage Sports Car Club autocross late 90s or so. I had a much lighter and less capable car than that BMW. It was in a long wide radius fast off camber right hand sweeper.

This was at a really great venue, but even SCCA recommended against off camber left turns.

Rupert
Rupert Dork
2/25/15 12:23 p.m.
yamaha wrote: It ramped the curbing in the corner.....nothing to see here

Thanks for your quick and resounding reply. Any your position in SCCA national leadership is?

Rupert
Rupert Dork
2/25/15 12:25 p.m.

In reply to chrispy:Again, I agree.

foxtrapper
foxtrapper UltimaDork
2/25/15 12:31 p.m.

I remember watching some drivers manage to get their street cars up onto the sides way back in the 1970's. It's always been possible, just rather unlikely. Especially the tighter and slower autocross tracks. I've never seen one completely roll (I think). The drivers almost always brought the car back down and slowed way down.

Much of the problems that do happen on an autocross course come from track layout. At least in my opinion.

yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
2/25/15 12:34 p.m.

In reply to Rupert:

They're blithering idiots IMHO, but strangely enough, they are slowly becoming less blithering idiots.

oldsaw
oldsaw UltimaDork
2/25/15 1:07 p.m.
Rupert wrote:
yamaha wrote: It ramped the curbing in the corner.....nothing to see here
Thanks for your quick and resounding reply. Any your position in SCCA national leadership is?

Your snark doesn't disguise the fact that you're comparing apples to oranges. Launching a car off a curb while in a fast turn (on a track no less) has little bearing on how that same car would behave on a typical autocross course.

Look at the cars on the exclusion list and compare them to the Audi. There are some big differences that even you can notice.

See? I can do snark, too.

jimbbski
jimbbski Dork
2/25/15 1:21 p.m.

"I remember watching some drivers manage to get their street cars up onto the sides way back in the 1970's. It's always been possible, just rather unlikely. Especially the tighter and slower autocross tracks. I've never seen one completely roll (I think). The drivers almost always brought the car back down and slowed way down."

I've started auto-xing back in mid 70's and can remember a few cars rolling over but only one of them doing so without hitting or driving over anything. I've watched many a VW Rabbit lift it's inside wheel both on the race track and parking lot. The only time I saw one roll was when it got hit in the rear while in that attitude by another Rabbit race car. (This was in a Rabbit/Bilstien Cup pro race.)

yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
2/25/15 1:35 p.m.

In reply to oldsaw:

I wasn't even going to bother to go there, as I don't like explaining the whole "Ask stupid questions, receive stupid answers" philosophy I operate under.

motomoron
motomoron SuperDork
2/25/15 1:42 p.m.

Here's a friend's e36 M3 on (I think) 295 Hoosier a6s, picking up the inside 2 in a sweeper at a WDC region event at FedEx Field. Pure mechanical grip, baby!

Driven5
Driven5 HalfDork
2/25/15 1:52 p.m.

In reply to yamaha:

There are no stupid questions...Only stupid people who ask questions.

chrispy
chrispy HalfDork
2/25/15 2:40 p.m.

There are a number of less informed individuals involved in the sport of autox that get in a tizzy when they see a car tripod, thus it must be unsafe for a tire to leave the ground. I was often complimented on my ability to "save" my Golf from rolling over by those unfamiliar with the handling characteristics of a MK2 Golf. On a worn suspension it took on the persona of a Lab with an over active bladder, lifting its leg on just about every inside cone. The only time it got spooky was during an overly ambitious run through an off camber hairpin.

Gary
Gary HalfDork
2/25/15 3:12 p.m.

Rupert, I agree with Chrispy that it makes for a dramatic cover picture, but is that really a race track? It looks like a track from the fifties with the trees so close to the pavement and no Armco. Or is that a country road somewhere around Ann Arbor, Michigan, with an amateur red and white stripe paint job on the curb added for effect? Did they mention in the article where it was photographed?

codrus
codrus Dork
2/25/15 3:39 p.m.
Gary wrote: Rupert, I agree with Chrispy that it makes for a dramatic cover picture, but is that really a race track? It looks like a track from the fifties with the trees so close to the pavement and no Armco. Or is that a country road somewhere around Ann Arbor, Michigan, with an amateur red and white stripe paint job on the curb added for effect? Did they mention in the article where it was photographed?

It's R&T. I wouldn't be surprised if it's photoshop.

yamaha
yamaha MegaDork
2/25/15 3:43 p.m.
motomoron wrote: Here's a friend's e36 M3 on (I think) 295 Hoosier a6s, picking up the inside 2 in a sweeper at a WDC region event at FedEx Field. Pure mechanical grip, baby!

Yep, I've never used r-comps before, but with street tires my ti was lifting the inside front up....

Knurled
Knurled UltimaDork
2/25/15 4:49 p.m.

i can produce a video of a Passat wagon on OE tires rolling in a parking lot. Whipsaw this way and that and over it goes.

iceracer
iceracer PowerDork
2/25/15 5:29 p.m.

FWD cars have been prone to lifting a rear wheel due to weight distribution. Not a problem.

When "bicycling" turn away from the high side.

jimbbski
jimbbski Dork
2/25/15 5:59 p.m.

I wasn't there to see this but a car I had a hand in building did do a bicycle at it's first autoX. It was a 1973 Capri with a hopped up 2.0L. What was different was it was totally gutted so that it weighed about 1900 lbs and sported 9.5X13 inch Goodyear race tires. It ended up having way to much front roll stiffness and proceeded to bicycle on one turn of the course when one driver told the other driver in the car that he thought you could take that one turn "Flat Out". He did and almost S#(T his pants!

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