Another "What brake pad for my miata?" question: going from no aero to aero with 9 lives racing...

Yes, yes, I know, but MY miata is unique and special!  :)

As established by the lack of answer to my identify these brake pads thread, I'm not sure what I had on the front my 94 Spec-Miata-Turned-Track-Car, as they came with the car when I bought it 3 years ago with plenty of meat, and they worked pretty well.  They're now worn down to the backing plate with probably 60-70 track day/tt hours on them.  I have Hawk HP+ on the rear because they were needed when I bought the car.

For my next trick, I just got my 9LivesRacing medium downforce kit in the mail today!  I was planning on running a brake bias adjuster as well to fine-tune the balance.

With my new found downforce robbing top speed and hopefully less need to brake, I should be even easier on brakes than before, right?  I'm still not planning on mounting up R-Comps, I stick to street tires (Currently Rs-4s).

Maybe EBC Red?  Hawk HPS?  PowerStop "Track Day"?  Stop Tech Street/Autocross?

I'm not opposed to replacing the rear, but they've still got >50% of pad life left, so I don't need to either.

The only note of concern is that this car is technically street legal here, and I drive it to events, but that's the only reason I drive it on the street, so it needs to be functional on the street, but does not need to be really pleasant.  I've driven my car up to 4 hours away and anticipate doing that again when the nation starts moving again.

What do you guys recommend?

Downforce usually requires more brakes, actually–you'll have more grip, which means more brake capacity before you lock a tire, which means more heat. 

Tom Suddard said:

Downforce usually requires more brakes, actually–you'll have more grip, which means more brake capacity before you lock a tire, which means more heat. 

Right on.  That makes sense, I was just thinking that I was turning my Miata into more of a go kart since I was adding drag without HP :) 

How much downforce are we talking about. I find like Tom the more downforce you have the more brakes you need you will need.

As for your special Miata unless you are vastly overpowered the usual Miata recommendations apply. Do remember as you add downforce and you add speed you will sit lower and lower on your suspension so if you are running a ton of downforce you may need to change your spring rates slightly for absolute maximum speed. At autocross speeds this will not happen unless you put A mod wings on the thing. 

wearymicrobe said:

How much downforce are we talking about. I find like Tom the more downforce you have the more brakes you need you will need.

As for your special Miata unless you are vastly overpowered the usual Miata recommendations apply. Do remember as you add downforce and you add speed you will sit lower and lower on your suspension so if you are running a ton of downforce you may need to change your spring rates slightly for absolute maximum speed. At autocross speeds this will not happen unless you put A mod wings on the thing. 

Medium downforce is what we're talking here :) (I bought the Medium Downforce Kit for the miotters).

Seriously, I'm expecting to be running somewhere ~200 lb @ the rear and 100 @ the front (a net change of 200 over the ~100 of lift the stock bumper generates) at 100 MPH.   And I doubt I'll get up above 115 again (I reached 118 at a long run at pocono last year).

So, slow and now a few MPH slower.   But I'll set my sights at HP+ level or above based on your and Tom's recommendation. 

This is my first go with aero.  I'm excited to play with it.

Oh, and I'm highly unlikely to do autocross with this car again.

I unfortunately don't really have time in my life to trade 8+ hours of hanging out for ~2 minutes of seat time, so I only do track days or time trials.

I have always liked Porterfields but I don't know how they work in a Miata. 

Call and talk to Danny at G-Loc, he's super friendly and has the knowledge and customer base he can get you on the right track. I called him for pads on hazmat and he was super helpful. 

Also one of the NLR guys, i think it's the guy who comments in the aero forum is running  a NA with their aero. Would be worth talking to him. 

Thanks for the advice, Space Cadet!  I'll reach out to G-Loc as I've been meaning to try their pads.  

Dean - I don't have any experience with them, but I see Goodwin has some in stock.

I'm probably over thinking this, eh?

My Pagid RSL29 pads survived a year of turbo miata track abuse without giving up the ghost and being livable on the street. Not one you ever hear about on forums but it's what they run in real racing. 

FWIW, Hawk HPS were not sufficient on stock 1.6 brakes on our NA for track use at 135whp on R comps.  Great street pad, though.

Currently running G-Loc R12 front, R10 rear on the massively overkill Wilwood brakes (still at 135whp).  I absolutely LOVE this setup... great stopping power, great feel, never the slightest hint of fade.

They do squeal like a motherberkeleyer when cold... 

In reply to Rodan :

Yeah I have the R10 R8 F/R on Hazmat for a work between of the R12 and R10 they recommend for heavy track use on my car and the R8 quare they recommended for One Lap. 

Carbotech or G-Loc. G-Loc is some engineers that left Carbotech and started their own brand, IIRC. 

The dust also isn't corrosive so it doesn't mess with wheels. I did a wet trackday, and left the dust on some Konig's for like 10 months. Soap and water and they looked brand new. 

EDIT: You may read about some people not liking those because they had issues bedding the pads in, I never had that problem. Find a deserted road, and just do constant 70-10 mph stops until the pedal gets soft and you can smell the brakes. Let them cool, you're good to go. 

Based on reading their website, I'm guessing g loc 10 & 8 with a bias adjustor would be the place to start for me.  

I don't understand the "need more brake" idea here.  You'll be able to decelerate faster so you may need more friction.  However, your starting velocity will be lower, end velocity higher, and you have more drag slowing you down, so the energy dissipated in a given corner will be lower, right?  And over a lap your brakes would be dissipating less energy so they should run cooler (not taking into account faster laptimes).  Seems to me if your brakes are OK from a temp standpoint you might just need grippier pads.  Am I overthinking this/missing something?

jwagner (Forum Supporter) said:

I don't understand the "need more brake" idea here.  You'll be able to decelerate faster so you may need more friction.  However, your starting velocity will be lower, end velocity higher, and you have more drag slowing you down, so the energy dissipated in a given corner will be lower, right?  And over a lap your brakes would be dissipating less energy so they should run cooler (not taking into account faster laptimes).  Seems to me if your brakes are OK from a temp standpoint you might just need grippier pads.  Am I overthinking this/missing something?

That's what my initial assumption was as well, but as you can see, everyone said that they ended up needing more brake when adding aero.

+1 on carbotech or gloc 

I  suggest 12f / 10r

i run 10/8 on my 1.6 SM and feel they need more bite

When you say adjustable proportional valve, I assume you are not talking about a balance bar between 2 master cylinders.

I do not have good experience with prop valves that simply get installed in the line that goes to the rear brakes.  

On initial application, it works, but almost immediately the pressure goes right to where it would have without the valve.

Ymmv.

wvumtnbkr said:

When you say adjustable proportional valve, I assume you are not talking about a balance bar between 2 master cylinders.

 

I do not have good experience with prop valves that simply get installed in the line that goes to the rear brakes.  

 

On initial application, it works, but almost immediately the pressure goes right to where it would have without the valve.

 

Ymmv.

Interesting.

I didn't have an issue using the Wilwood prop valve on my NA. Was able to dial it in so the backs locked just after the fronts.

Even my instructor commented on how good the brakes felt.

Rodan said:

FWIW, Hawk HPS were not sufficient on stock 1.6 brakes on our NA for track use at 135whp on R comps.  Great street pad, though.

Currently running G-Loc R12 front, R10 rear on the massively overkill Wilwood brakes (still at 135whp).  I absolutely LOVE this setup... great stopping power, great feel, never the slightest hint of fade.

They do squeal like a motherberkeleyer when cold... 

Curious what your full brake setup was with the Wilwoods? I put Dynalights on my '94 and I was greatly displeased with the brake feel. Definitely stopped shorter, but with way more travel and mushiness. Now currently running a prop valve and SS lines, still not crazy about the brake feel. I sourced a 15/16 master + booster and I'm wondering if I should go whole hog with a bigger master and a brace...

In reply to calteg :

Front:  V8R/Supermiata 11.75 rotors and Wilwood Dynapro radial mount calipers.  Rear:  FM/Wilwood Powerlite on 'sport' rotors.

Wilwood 1" master cylinder and prop valve, stock 1.6 NA booster, SS lines and G-loc pads R12/R10.

IMHO, the master cylinder is a big part of the puzzle.  I had an m/c brace with the stock master, but it didn't fit with the Wilwood.  I need to get around to fabbing up a brace for the new m/c.

z31maniac said:

EDIT: You may read about some people not liking those because they had issues bedding the pads in, I never had that problem. Find a deserted road, and just do constant 70-10 mph stops until the pedal gets soft and you can smell the brakes. Let them cool, you're good to go. 

G-LOC also offers pre bedded on their pads for $20 a set.. just install and go. that's what i did on mine. best $40 I ever spent. 

And thanks to you guys, I do have an email in to G-loc, so I'll let you know what they recommend.

I am running EBC Red on one car, a ceramic material with negligible dust, and find it to be very good.

I run Porterfield R4-S on my other modern sports car and find it almost as good, and I have heard good things about the HPS pads for hard street driving.

For serious competition you'd need something more, IMO.

wspohn said:

I am running EBC Red on one car, a ceramic material with negligible dust, and find it to be very good.

I run Porterfield R4-S on my other modern sports car and find it almost as good, and I have heard good things about the HPS pads for hard street driving.

For serious competition you'd need something more, IMO.

I have EBC Reds on my Rx-8, and it's a fantastic brake pad..  I don't know why I didn't think of that for this application.