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kb58
kb58 SuperDork
8/10/22 1:09 p.m.

Regarding the proposed engine swap, what's the plan for the transaxle? I doubt the OEM one (with adaptor plate) will last for long with the increased torque.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
8/10/22 1:24 p.m.

WHile cleaning, just remember that the fire powder is caustic as all getout. Anticipate needing to take steps to remediate and prevent surface corrosion on retained parts that were exposed. 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
8/10/22 1:27 p.m.
kb58 said:

Regarding the proposed engine swap, what's the plan for the transaxle? I doubt the OEM one (with adaptor plate) will last for long with the increased torque.

The E153 transaxle that came in turbo MR2s is extremely robust, and survives just fine in drag cars making more than twice our proposed power level. It also bolts directly to the 2GR FE with very minor modifications. The bolt holes and dowels all line up, but some have to be tapped for different size bolts, or changed from threaded to bolt-thru, stuff like that. 

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia UltraDork
8/10/22 1:37 p.m.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

First off, glad you're OK, JG. Secondly, this is an aspect of older cars that some folks don't think about. All those fuel lines that are possibly corroded, dry-rotted, etc, and you can't see, especially in a mid-engine car like an MR2. They can be a time bomb. Of course, I'm engaging in completely baseless speculation here, but I have my suspicions....

This has always been a problem with Aircooled VWs and Old Porsches , 

The hoses were not made to take the heat of the motor and crack , with Bosch fuel injection the 12v fuel pump puts out 30 psi spraying over a hot engine if it cracks , 

I burned my VW camper in France years ago......

 

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
8/10/22 1:55 p.m.

Back in the day of original VW Bugs, the dark humor was that there were two types: those that had had an engine fire, and those that would.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/10/22 4:05 p.m.
californiamilleghia said:
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

First off, glad you're OK, JG. Secondly, this is an aspect of older cars that some folks don't think about. All those fuel lines that are possibly corroded, dry-rotted, etc, and you can't see, especially in a mid-engine car like an MR2. They can be a time bomb. Of course, I'm engaging in completely baseless speculation here, but I have my suspicions....

This has always been a problem with Aircooled VWs and Old Porsches , 

The hoses were not made to take the heat of the motor and crack , with Bosch fuel injection the 12v fuel pump puts out 30 psi spraying over a hot engine if it cracks , 

I burned my VW camper in France years ago......

 

Until at least the mid 2000s, German rubber would biodegrade almost audibly.

VW buses had the fuel tank higher than the engine.  A fuel leak would drain onto the engine, doesn't matter what the pressure is because gravity.

 

Apparently the real fun started when the magnesium engine case ignited.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
8/10/22 4:07 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
kb58 said:

Regarding the proposed engine swap, what's the plan for the transaxle? I doubt the OEM one (with adaptor plate) will last for long with the increased torque.

The E153 transaxle that came in turbo MR2s is extremely robust, and survives just fine in drag cars making more than twice our proposed power level. It also bolts directly to the 2GR FE with very minor modifications. The bolt holes and dowels all line up, but some have to be tapped for different size bolts, or changed from threaded to bolt-thru, stuff like that. 

I think the trans is rated for something like 450 ft-lb... in all wheel drive form.

Nothing you can do with a naturally aspirated V6 is going to faze it smiley

Slippery
Slippery PowerDork
8/10/22 4:15 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
californiamilleghia said:
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

First off, glad you're OK, JG. Secondly, this is an aspect of older cars that some folks don't think about. All those fuel lines that are possibly corroded, dry-rotted, etc, and you can't see, especially in a mid-engine car like an MR2. They can be a time bomb. Of course, I'm engaging in completely baseless speculation here, but I have my suspicions....

This has always been a problem with Aircooled VWs and Old Porsches , 

The hoses were not made to take the heat of the motor and crack , with Bosch fuel injection the 12v fuel pump puts out 30 psi spraying over a hot engine if it cracks , 

I burned my VW camper in France years ago......

 

Until at least the mid 2000s, German rubber would biodegrade almost audibly.

VW buses had the fuel tank higher than the engine.  A fuel leak would drain onto the engine, doesn't matter what the pressure is because gravity.

 

Apparently the real fun started when the magnesium engine case ignited.

A big problem on Beetles is when they install the fuel filter on top of the engine. 

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom UltimaDork
8/10/22 4:56 p.m.

Holy carp. I hadn't seen this, so I'm just going to chime in with a very late "Glad you're okay!"

Also glad to see the car isn't as bad as feared and is getting Upgrayeddeded.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
8/10/22 5:01 p.m.

Two Ds for a double dose of more cylinDDers cool

WonkoTheSane
WonkoTheSane UltraDork
8/10/22 10:39 p.m.
JG Pasterjak said:
Woody (Forum Supportum) said:
Woody (Forum Supportum) said:

Fire is bad.

Update:

Fire is good. 

four out of five birch trees agree.

Son of a birch!

AxeHealey
AxeHealey Dork
8/11/22 8:59 a.m.

Glad it seems to be not as bad as you expected and, mostly, glad you're alright. 

Seeing the carpet in there makes me wonder how flamable that stuff is. Should a car that'll mostly live on track just have the carpet taken out? For a car that's driven to the track and spends most of it's life on the street of course it would stay. 

 

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
8/11/22 4:37 p.m.

Glad you're ok!  I'm not up on my MR2 swaps so how is the V6 an upgrade over the already of an upgrade turbo motor it currently has?

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
8/11/22 6:43 p.m.
docwyte said:

Glad you're ok!  I'm not up on my MR2 swaps so how is the V6 an upgrade over the already of an upgrade turbo motor it currently has?

The Gen4 3SGTE that's coming out specs out at around 245hp, 230 ft/lbs at the crank. On around 13psi we saw like 225 at the wheels. You can make good power with them, but it starts getting expensive and risky as you approach the high 200s as the turbo is cast into the exhaust manifold, making turbo changes difficult. You need to either have the stock cartridge reworked, or bolt on an older exhaust manifold that will accept an aftermarket turbo. It's also a turbo motor, and as much as I love a whistling blow off val e, turbos make a lot of heat that has to be dealt with, are laggy, complicated and will eventually fold you soft stock rods in half as you increase the bost to the moon.

The 2GR FE sepcs out at 277hp, 260 ft/lbs, but the conventional wisdom is they're criminally underrated. The typical MR2 swap with headers, intake pipe and a tuned ECU puts close to 300 to the wheels right out of the crate. It's a thoroughly modern motor, with a DBW throttle, VVTi, roller rockers, and an all aluminum construction that's actually lighter than the iron block/aluminum head 3SGTE. 

An 85,000 mile example was also $1500. We couldn't have spent the same amount of money on the 3SGTE and gotten the same return on power. Yes we have a lot of other stuff to buy to complete the swap, but we needed to pull the motor anyway to repair the harness, and it almost seemed that the easiest path to an upgrade was a newer, more modern powerplant rather than upgrading the old one.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
8/11/22 6:54 p.m.

In reply to AxeHealey :

There's a federal motor vehicle safety standard that applies.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.302

 

AxeHealey
AxeHealey Dork
8/11/22 7:25 p.m.

In reply to Apexcarver :

Should have guessed it. Thanks. First put in place in the 70's it looks like, interesting. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/11/22 7:30 p.m.

I'm so proud of the ridiculous and immediate escalation here.

"My dual purpose track/street car caught on fire, so I'm putting in a bigger engine. It's already here."

What was the order of events? Did you buy the new engine before or after opening the hood?

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
8/11/22 8:02 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I'm so proud of the ridiculous and immediate escalation here.

"My dual purpose track/street car caught on fire, so I'm putting in a bigger engine. It's already here."

What was the order of events? Did you buy the new engine before or after opening the hood?

I've been on the fence about power upgrades for a while. The original plan was to leave the 3SGTE in place and do computer/E85/boost, but as soon as I knew that the engine would need to be physically removed it was a much easier decision to put something better back in. I mean, technically we could get it running again just fine without pulling the motor, but properly getting the soot and char out of the engine bay is really going to require an engine-out. And with the exception of the intake tube, the engine that's coming out is fine and totally sellable, along with stuff like the intercooler and a/c compressor, so I've got some good recoup fodder in there as well.

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
8/11/22 8:03 p.m.

And the actual order of operations was Thursday: fire, Monday: got engine lid open, Tuesday: order replacement powerplant.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
8/11/22 8:28 p.m.

I think you should put the crispy engine in some LBC that Tim undoubtedly has sitting around. Circle of life, etc. 

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