Can we start a separate topic for just EFI

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Yes there are two throttle body assemblies. My plan is to swap a Chevy LS assembly for each of them.   That way instead of Analog sensors I'll have the didgital sensors. But two sets. 

93gsxturbo said:

frenchyd said:

OK here's a quick question, can you connect access to OBD2 on a Megasquirt system? 

Here's a quick answer.  No.  

Someone needs to hire the exe VW engineers to allow a Megasquirt to talk to OBD2 systems and "give" them the information they need for the tests. I would still have my MSM if there had been a way to keep all the FM upgrades and pass Maryland emissions. I could not bring myself to downgrade that sweet car and was not willing to keep it sitting in the garage until 2024 when it would be exempt. 

Okay, sorry for the rant, back to the topic at hand.....

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

dherr (Forum Supporter) said:

93gsxturbo said:

frenchyd said:

OK here's a quick question, can you connect access to OBD2 on a Megasquirt system? 

Here's a quick answer.  No.  

Someone needs to hire the exe VW engineers to allow a Megasquirt to talk to OBD2 systems and "give" them the information they need for the tests. I would still have my MSM if there had been a way to keep all the FM upgrades and pass Maryland emissions. I could not bring myself to downgrade that sweet car and was not willing to keep it sitting in the garage until 2024 when it would be exempt. 

Okay, sorry for the rant, back to the topic at hand.....

We've talked to the SEMA emissions pros about a legit OBD-II compatible ECU setup. It involved buckets and buckets and buckets of money. The amount of testing involved in making sure the various tests are performed and accurate is OE-level investment. You don't realize how complex these things are until you start reading the documents. They wake up in the middle of the night to do things.

If you just want to fake the messages that indicate successful tests, that's not too difficult technically but the EPA would nuke any vendor from orbit. If anyone's actually done it, they're not talkin'. I wouldn't recommend calling anyone up to ask them either.

Luckily, that's unnecessary for what Frenchy wants to do.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

There is a reason only the big automakers meet these environmental requirements.  They also have no choice. Nothing about OBD2 is convenient for automakers.  When I worked in the auto industry years with big regulatory changes were dreaded.  

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

They can also be seen as opportunities....  

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thanks Keith, I know that anything that is playing games with the EPA would be a quick trip to jail. But it is a shame that there is no way to run the OEM code and then the modified code for the "track". Years ago, you could get Audi ECU's reflashed by various vendors and you could switch between the stock programming for trips to the dealer or emissions testing and then switch to the tuner programming. While Megasquirt systems and similar are great for projects like Frenchy's car, they really don't work for cars that are newer than 20 years old if you live in a state where emission testing is the norm.  Shame here in MD as they don't look under the hood, they just plug into the ODB2 port. 

dherr (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thanks Keith, I know that anything that is playing games with the EPA would be a quick trip to jail. But it is a shame that there is no way to run the OEM code and then the modified code for the "track". Years ago, you could get Audi ECU's reflashed by various vendors and you could switch between the stock programming for trips to the dealer or emissions testing and then switch to the tuner programming. While Megasquirt systems and similar are great for projects like Frenchy's car, they really don't work for cars that are newer than 20 years old if you live in a state where emission testing is the norm.  Shame here in MD as they don't look under the hood, they just plug into the ODB2 port. 

It's also possible to get reflashes that improve performance but do not affect emissions. We use that technique for our forced induction systems on newer Miatas, and even my 2000 Jeep has a CARB-legal reflash on it. It's unlikely you can buy a tuner now that has a special "emissions test" mode, not from a US based vendor anyhow. As for a track mode, first we have to get the RPM Act through so there is actually a legal definition for a track car. It'll be a dedicated one-way trip, though - you won't be able to remove emissions controls temporarily. Chances are the VIN will get flagged as part of the implementation.

A Megasquirt won't be able to run "OEM code" on most OE cars, they're far less powerful but more importantly the programming isn't exactly open source for the OEs! Reflashes are a better option because it allows you to retain the bulk of the carefully-calibrated OE code and just tweak the areas that need to be tweaked.

frenchyd said:

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Run a balance line across the two plenums and make sure the throttles are mechanically synced and use just one of the tps. 

dherr (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thanks Keith, I know that anything that is playing games with the EPA would be a quick trip to jail. But it is a shame that there is no way to run the OEM code and then the modified code for the "track". Years ago, you could get Audi ECU's reflashed by various vendors and you could switch between the stock programming for trips to the dealer or emissions testing and then switch to the tuner programming. While Megasquirt systems and similar are great for projects like Frenchy's car, they really don't work for cars that are newer than 20 years old if you live in a state where emission testing is the norm.  Shame here in MD as they don't look under the hood, they just plug into the ODB2 port. 

DIY OBDII is not really possible.  The amount of testing required to find the proper limits where you see enough of a increase in emissions is as much or more than what is done to actually develop the emissions.  

For what frenchy wants- a basic comprehensive component monitor- that's reasonably straight forward, except that if you are already looking at the sensors, you can see if everything is working.

That, and I will second Keith's point about the separation of emissions and performance- the former has an influence, but it's pretty minor- where you run rich to protect components.  It's really not a massive improvement you would find.  If you want more boost- boost limits are more about just keeping the whole powertrain alive, as opposed to emissions.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Run a balance line across the two plenums and make sure the throttles are mechanically synced and use just one of the tps. 

Fortunately for Frenchy it comes with a really cool setup right from the factory.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Run a balance line across the two plenums and make sure the throttles are mechanically synced and use just one of the tps. 

Bingo!  Spot on again.  I'm not usually so dense.    There is a factory balance tube and the linkage is easily adjustable to get indentical  flow from each side.   I even have a Unisyn to confirm that.  ( required for any  British car ) 

   Now I'm beginning to wonder why I failed to grasp  the simplicity of EFI.   I suppose it would get a lot more complicated  with ignition requirements and sequential fuel injection.  

frenchyd said:

 

   Now I'm beginning to wonder why I failed to grasp  the simplicity of EFI.   I suppose it would get a lot more complicated  with ignition requirements and sequential fuel injection.  

A little, but not that much. You just need to get enough sensors onto the engine that the ECU will have some idea which cylinder is firing next and when to fire it. Some possibilities include:

1. Modifying the distributor so in addition to the 12 tooth trigger wheel, you add a second sensor that puts out one pulse per revolution.

2. Add a crank trigger and cut the distributor wheel down so it only gives one pulse per rotation.

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

I think Jaguar solved all that. They simply batch fired the injectors and let the valves sort which was which and when.  
 Oh and with regard the distributor.  Opposite the ignition  there is a Hall effect sensor which rotates around and triggers the injector. 

I think Matt was just saying even going from what you have to cop/sequential is as simple as just getting an addtional reference signal. We have modified distributors to be "missing tooth" before to only require the one sensor. The jag dizzy will have 12 windows and if you modify it to one but use an additional crank trigger you are right there.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Isn't that what the distributor is already doing?  One end of the rotor contacts the terminal for the spark plug wire. The other end of the rotor has the Hall effect sensor to fire the injectors once per rotation. ( batch fired)  

      To get sequential we could possibly put 11 more sensors in the distributor.  ? 
     Or use the later crank sensor.    

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Any suggestion on how to keep the turbo quiet?  Is there a brand or type of  pop off valve quieter than others?   Or maybe run the discharge pipe back into the exhaust pipe?  

The usual way to keep a blow off valve quiet is to get a recirculating model - this simply has a flange on the outlet which you plumb into the intake between the air filter and the turbo inlet. (For a setup using a mass air flow sensor, this would be between the MAF and the turbo inlet.)

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

Thanks Matt.  So it's a kind of EGR? 
  No, that pumps oxygen into the exhaust. 
    Hmm,  the tube I see from the pop off valve is about an inch or so.  And  I'll use a 4" tube from the air filter.  OK. That makes sense.  
  It doesn't heat or dilute the charge too much?  

EGR pumps exhaust gases into the intake, I think you are thinking of air injection.

Routing a blowoff valve to the exhaust is how the old very explosive and turbo-unfriendly antilag systems worked.  It is sort of how the newer ones do it, too, but in a much more tightly controlled fashion.

If you are trying to run a 2 DBW V12 why nt chose an ECU that supports that setup?

I know I said the same thing on the other thread.....but that is still the question

The enginelab I have is 12 fuel, 10 spark (so you need waste spark and has 2 DBW, 2 WBO2

The rusEFI proteus is like $500? and is 12 fuel, 12 spark, 2 DBW 

Both allow custom CAN so if you really wanted it for some reason you could make the OBDII port work.

Then for a  bit more money the Haltech Nexus and  Motec M150,  do everything you want

Or as someone said 2 ecus can be used giving to at least a dozen options.  I think the reason this is seeming hard is because you are trying to select an ECU that is a poor fit your application.

In reply to mke :

Thanks I'll look into those.
   The reason for the Megasquirt preference is three  fold.
First I got a brand new one ( in the box)  with the car. 
 Second it seems that it's the one best understood by the tuners 

3rd Jaguar uses a distributor  so ignition is already handled 

The rotor onlY makes the spark go from the cap center post to the right cylinder. The hall effect inside tells it when. On a dizzy only electronic setup it does it 12x per cycle. For sequential you need to know which is #1 so you need a second sensor or a different trigger arrangement. I have seen plug wires with inductive triggers around them before for this (vw shift light works like that) but never used one in a high performance build. 
 

In general turbo setups are a lot quieter than na. Rerouting the wastegate into the exhaust helps a ton as well as Matt's recommendation on the blow off. 
 

I don't think he was using dbw and I thought this was "challenge" budget so those options are out of scope iirc. 
 

Rusefi still seems interesting but the race features don't look mature. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to mke :

Thanks I'll look into those.
   The reason for the Megasquirt preference is three  fold.
First I got a brand new one ( in the box)  with the car. 
 Second it seems that it's the one best understood by the tuners 

3rd Jaguar uses a distributor  so ignition is already handled 

1) ebay   - I get that having parts so they count as "free" on the project budget is part of what makes a project doable.....but it still has value so i like to include the  ebay value in the calculation so I know the true cost of changing my mind.   Which MS do you have, I missed that?  

2) Most professional tuners won't touch an MS setup - Not to say there is anything wrong with MS but shops make money selling stuff and cheap stuff makes them less money.  I'm no professional, but EFI conversions was a side gig for me for a bit and I loved the 2 MS cars I touched (MS1, MS2) so much I cut them out and replaced them.  That was probably 15 years ago, I know they are better now but  last I heard they are still using a 30 year old 16 bit processors.  The issues I had at the time were fuel and spark maps that were too small (16&12 cell iirc?) and too little I/O....don't know is any of that has changed.

Anyway, if you're going to need a shop to help you then you either pick a shop you like and use what they like or you find a shop that has experience (or is willing to lean while not charging for the hours they spend learning) with the ECU you like.

3) If you are using a distributor then you have more options I think. If you are willing to run semi-sequential fuel+ distributor, then probably a dozen options....but sequential fuel does run better than semi, which is better than multipoint, on most setups anyway, your results may vary.

I  think when you are doing a project its worth the time to layout what your goals are, what you need, what you'd like, any ideas for the future and then assemble the parts that match the list.  Here it looks like you are struggling because you're trying to wrap your head around the things you can't do with the parts you have on hand which means you can't actually build the project you had in mind.  

My suggestion is start listing out what you want, label the column "wish list".  Then label the next column"your MS"  and go down and put a check next to whatever it will do.  Then pick another ECU and try again....because its a V12 I'll suggest Proteus as an inexpensive option, and maybe something commercial like an AEM infinity or whatever you like as a 3rd option.  If adding/using a feature is an upgrade/expense put the $$ amount in the box and total everything at the bottom and see what you get money wise.  Its almost always cheaper to pay a little more upfront but not always so a good exercise.

Good luck!

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

Rusefi still seems interesting but the race features don't look mature. 

I think you have that right.  They are at a few hundred installs now I think and appear to work on features when an install is both running and trying to use the feature...from what I've seen they do respond when those 2 conditions are met.  I saw a thread about traction control and I think the code was just waiting for someone to use it before any more could be done. Flex fuel was open request but once someone posted a pic of a setup ready to use it the feature was added with a week....that seems to be how it goes. 

I see a lot of threads about adding PNP options for people.

I've not used one but have been following thinking it would be a good fit for my next project...if I ever finish my current project.  They have a GDI setup kind of working and getting better and I am 3/4 thinking I want to GDI convert the 1947 flathead Lincoln V12 sitting on my shop floor