Can we start a separate topic for just EFI

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Well that clarifies things.  I first thought the hall sensors triggered the EFI. Then I read batch triggered.  Which had me woefully confused because why would they need 12 triggers unless it was somehow sequential.  
     I mean regular distributor points or electronic the rotor points to the cylinder to be fired.  To add the Hall effect seems like a added complication. 
    The first few years Jaguar 1975-1978  used three Bosch VW rabbit ECM units.  Then Lucas consolidated everything into one analog system. The basic flaw with that system is there is no way to change things. Short of unsoldering resisters etc and Re soldering replacements back in.   

In reply to mke :

Oh, to further make the point.  This is a race only car. Never will be street driven.  ( well except inside a trailer) 

    Yes, I do want to keep costs down to run the challenge, but afterwards depending on what SVRA  does  I may need to buy a replacement. 
      
THE REASON I was thinking I would need OBD2  was to identify a failed sensor or area to check rather than wander around blindly trying to trouble shoot. 
As Paul VR6 said, I've got the data displayed on the lap top.  

In reply to frenchyd :

Ahh, race only makes it easier and yes, with any aftermarket setup you can log or live view the data which is really nice.  If it logs to a removably drive of some kind I like to let it run rewriting over old data so you always have the last 10 minutes or whatever incase you need to shut down quickly toy can go back and see what went wrong...I think I remember MS using an SD card?   Some  ECU setups also let you set limits and ranges much like OEM ECUs to light a warning light or go into a fail-safe mode or even flash trim maps or errors just like OEM setups, also nice features.

It sure sounds like MS from the trunk with a distributor and multipoint/batch injection and off to the challenge you go....it is what it is and it will run fine.  My mind has never been able to process the challenge....love the idea but I just can't think like that, I have mental meltdowns at the idea of needing to even splice a wire rather than replace much less splice on junkyard connectors with wire colors mismatch to my harness....I just couldn't don it   

In reply to mke :

GDI as in Gas Direct Injection?  Not exactly something that can be adapted to any engine. 

alfadriver said:

In reply to mke :

GDI as in Gas Direct Injection?  Not exactly something that can be adapted to any engine. 

Yes, direct injection and no, its not a trivial conversion but made both easier and desired by the flathead design.  I have a set of kind of cool finned (pun intended) unmachined aluminum aftermarket heads, so nearly 1 challenge budget already spent 

Then the block has 8 intake and exhaust ports, meaning some of each are siamese and some aren't and flat heads flow just terrible so cam durations tend to be long meaning to port inject it the injectors kind of need to be in the cam galley shooting up into the port towar the valve and really big injectors to limit duty cycle to under 20% injecting at an open intake valve not close so the fuel would end up in the intended cylinder ....its possible for sure but not trivial so this seems an ideal candidate for TBI which I'd like to avoid as I'm also planning to screw type blower,  leaving DI as the winner.  Plus I've never played with GDI making it a bit more interesting.

In my head its a pretty cool autocross car.....I'll do a thread on it if I can ever get past the current project.

alfadriver said:

In reply to mke :

GDI as in Gas Direct Injection?  Not exactly something that can be adapted to any engine. 

Did you not realize who was saying that?

OHSCrifle said:

alfadriver said:

In reply to mke :

GDI as in Gas Direct Injection?  Not exactly something that can be adapted to any engine. 

Did you not realize who was saying that?

Yea, and having spend the last 1/2 of my career on DI, it's not just about machining.  Or just programming

As I see it, for a flat head V12, it would be for the sake of just doing it.  Which is fine, if the point is to brag that you put DI on an engine.   The dyno time needed to properly calibrate it would be pretty significant.

alfadriver said:

As I see it, for a flat head V12, it would be for the sake of just doing it.  Which is fine, if the point is to brag that you put DI on an engine.   The dyno time needed to properly calibrate it would be pretty significant.

I'm sure you're exactly right but really what is the purpose of any car project if not to do it?  The idea here is a 1920s body, with a 1940s engine, with a 1960s frame, 1980s suspension, 2000 tranaxle, 2020 control system.  A century of parts, something like that, something built just because.  So far I have some engine part so it a long way from real.

Your point about calibration I think applies to any EFI setup.  Making a race car run well on the track is 1 level, making a car start and drive nice on the street is quite a different feat that often chews up a whole lot of time.  The couple MS cars I mentioned I worked on came to me running fine really but with the owner not happy with the way they drove and were at the "just fix it!" point with them....that last 10% takes 90% of the time.  If my GDI project never graduates from race to street i think I would be ok with that, but never is a very long time 

In reply to mke :

No, DI is a whole new ball of wax in terms of calibration.  Pump control is required- which needs really good calibration, and injector timing is hardly trivial.  Let alone, you need a controller capable of driving the pump and the 65V injectors.

OEM's spend a lot of time getting the injector timing correct- so that you get everything out of DI.  

Getting the EFI fueling right is really easy, especially WOT.  Spark is easy if you already have a spark curve, but if you really want to get it right- that's more data input.  But DI adds a lot some dimensions that are a little harder to do on road.

I wouldn't say never, as someone can get access to a steady state dyno and the inputs to know that the timing is correct.

Good luck with your project.

The best mod to my di race engines is stainless steel injector blanks. 

alfadriver said:

I wouldn't say never, as someone can get access to a steady state dyno and the inputs to know that the timing is correct.

Indeed they can...one more thing sitting in the shop waiting its turn on the to-do list. 

mke said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Ahh, race only makes it easier and yes, with any aftermarket setup you can log or live view the data which is really nice.  If it logs to a removably drive of some kind I like to let it run rewriting over old data so you always have the last 10 minutes or whatever incase you need to shut down quickly toy can go back and see what went wrong...I think I remember MS using an SD card?   Some  ECU setups also let you set limits and ranges much like OEM ECUs to light a warning light or go into a fail-safe mode or even flash trim maps or errors just like OEM setups, also nice features.

It sure sounds like MS from the trunk with a distributor and multipoint/batch injection and off to the challenge you go....it is what it is and it will run fine.  My mind has never been able to process the challenge....love the idea but I just can't think like that, I have mental meltdowns at the idea of needing to even splice a wire rather than replace much less splice on junkyard connectors with wire colors mismatch to my harness....I just couldn't don it   

 

 

Reduce,  reuse, or eliminate is the trick.   Do you know how much wire is in a Jaguar?  OK the ends may be crusty. But then snip those off and really don't you have a good chunk of wire about a zillion miles long?  ( at least it seems like it.).   It will even be the right color. 
   Change the timing and eliminate certain things and you go from a 262 hp DIN to to 299 DIN.  Next toss the Cats and 4 mufflers. There's 30 Net DIN right there according to AJ6 engineering.  The 20 horsepower available in the air filter*  assembly is more free power. 
* the factory muffled intake noise by putting a reverse funnel picking up hot air off the radiator.  It's like a 1" opening leading to 3 inches in the filter assembly. ( no I didn't get that backwards the factory did) That's 50 net horsepower. 
      The timing is retarded in an attempt to improve fuel mileage because the compression is 11.5-1  use E85  which instead of 91-93 octane is 100+ octane  that allows timing to advance.  How much?  We'll have to see.   Then to ensure no preignition  we can always squirt windshield washer fluid.  Typically it's 10% methanol. But because of the brutal cold we have 20% and 30%   Then of course I've got a cheap pair of EBay turbo's to add to all of that   again we'll have to see how much that helps.  But let's assume the engine blows up?   No problem, I've got 3 spares and can get more spares.

 The nice thing is Jaguars have beautifully ruggedly built engines.  Big strong forgings  that are heat treated.  54 studs to hold the heads on.  tiny short stroke (2.75)  stone stock the valves won't float until 8300 rpm  but the camshaft stops pulling at 5000 rpm  .375 lift almost no  duration.  

  Then they have EFI that nobody can figure out.  
so some cracked hose or a $30 ignition module fails and it sits in a garage for 20-30 years or more not worth anything to anybody. Hardly any wear on the engine. 
 Out of the dozens of engines I've looked at I've never seen any wear

    So it may not be a reliable combination. I think the challenge is maybe 10 miles if you take advantage of every moment of track time? 
 10 miles. Minimum, 2-3?  

In reply to frenchyd :

It looks like the  hardest part of getting you're EFI setup work is you getting all the mechanical stuff sorted.

Again I suggest a list for the EFI....it turns out I make lists for everything.

Crank position - check, you a have Hall sensor in the distributor

MAP sensor  - It needs to work with your boost, is you are not going over 15psi , a 2bar MAP, 3bar is 30psi max boost.  iirc MS uses built in MAP? you need to find out if you have the correct one or use an external MAP

Coolant Temp (CTL)- The engine should have one, you just need to look up ohms v temp for it so you can tell your ECU

Inlet Air Temp (IAT)- The engine should have one or you can use something else since you are adding turbos, just screw it into one of the pipes AFTER the turbo

Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) - The stock throttlebodies should have at least 1 between them you can use

Barometric Pressure sensor (Baro - just another MAP 1bar open to atmosphere) -  I'm recalling some weirdness in the way MS does speed-density (S-D, MAP based load sensing) so you probably also want a Baro sensor to make it work right, other ECUs don't need it for race setups but its always helpful with street setups so good practice to have it. 

Then follow the instructions that came with your ECU to wire everything up....you should be able to use most of the stock wiring.  So the EFI part of your project is the easy part.

The harder part is fitting the plumbing for the 2 turbos.  You will also need a Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) that can deal with the boost and your stock fuel pump may not be happy depending how high you go on boost pressure, same with the stock injectors. and E85 will make then work that much harder so they will most likely need to be upgraded.  I know there are junk yard solutions for all this and no doubt if you start a project thread someone on the forum will be able to point you to them vs me pointing you to the summit racing catalog and blowing your challenge hopes as just a nice set of injectors could set you back $1500 or more, add a fuel pump, regulator, hoses, and your entire budget is gone   

Edit - Flex Flue Sensor - If you plan to switch between gas and E85 a flex fuel sensor would be nice, don't know is your ECU supports it?  You of the MS users can probably help you with that.

The MS was designed using GM sensors. So I'll be swapping most Jaguar's sensors for GM. The only issue is GM's will be metric while Jaguars are still inches. They are cheap in local junkyards.  Fuel injectors  from a flex fueled Chevy V8 6 liter are just the right size for the V12. With boost and E85. 
     The fuel cell I'll need for future use will typically have big enough volume and pressure. Luckily I traded my rust free Jaguar gas tank for it. 
    Flex fuel sensors tend to be under trucks ( making access easy) and there are a lot of them  here in the corn belt.  I will always use E85. The issue is on occasion I'll use pump E85 and sometimes I buy it in cans  which is a full 85% ethanol. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

The best mod to my di race engines is stainless steel injector blanks. 

So between you and Alpha you made me go back out and re-look.....port injection is possible physically if I plan to raise the blower a couple inches or just don't mount it on top at all.  Its 240 deg between the siamese cylinder firings, so if I stick to a cam with 230 or so deg @.050 and size the injectors for a 30-35% DC....it could work as port injection but there is still a 90+ degree turn in the port where fuel would want to puddle, at least until it warms up.  I'll need to think a bit more about this......

frenchyd said:

The MS was designed using GM sensors. So I'll be swapping most Jaguar's sensors for GM. The only issue is GM's will be metric while Jaguars are still inches. 

Good you have an injector plan.  Fuel pump and FPR?

I'm pretty near certain you don't need to swap those sensors, you just tell the ECU what you have on the setup screen and you're good to go....at least that is all that's involved with other ECUs so hopefully an MS user will correct me if what Im saying is not right. 

I can tell you for certain though that GM also used inch sized sensors in the past so if you do decide to swap them its just a question buying the right sensor.

I'm not sure which MS you have so I have no idea if it has a connection that can read a flex fuel sensor, or outputs for dual wastegates,  or methanol injection.  It's really a good idea map out what the ecu has to what you are planning to use before you get too deep into buying parts.

In reply to mke :

I've got the MS buried. But you've got me interested.  I'll dig it out today and see which I've got.  
    When I've been on the MS site in the past there seemed to be a great deal of trouble getting it to accept the analog Sensors Jaguar used. ( nothing was digital until the 90's except a few rare special edition Lister and TWR versions)    The fuel pumps are 2 used Walbro (?)  that puts out up to 60 psi Each.  
The only reason I don't have it already is I need to confirm with SVRA what their requirements are.   Well that and it's only 22 gallons which might be a little close when racing at Elkhart Lake. Those three long straights on the 4 mile track really use a lot of fuel. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I've never seen anything but analog sensors for CLT, IAT, MAP, TPS.  There should be a calibration table for each sensor and you just need to find or measure the ohms v temp, voltage v pressure,  ect.  Very straightforward, 5v to 1 side, AN input for the other, no polarity for temps, MAP and TPS also need a gnd but still are read by an AN input.

Flex fuel I think outputs a frequency  as do many MAFs so there is probably an ecu input....but you'll need to look it up.

In reply to mke :

My 2 cents?  Please  crank mount the blower. That V12 will be real sexy because it will feature those 12 spark  plugs. Showing off those flatheads to best advantage.  A top mounted blower will obscure those.
  Is the V12 90 degrees or 60 degrees?  
  Do you have enough room in front?  Actually what car are you planning on using?  

 

 One final thought how can you ensure the coolant reaches all cylinders equally?   On the Jaguar V12 I'm pulling it off the back rather than the front where it can short cut and overheat the rear cylinders. 

In reply to mke :

Thanks.  

In reply to frenchyd :

They don't look bad with the blower on top

The body I'm looking at is 24" tall though so this would stick out the hood.  No, front mounting to the crank is not an option, side mount is where it will go if not on top.  

It is a 75 degree V....as narrow as they could go and still use the V8 parts and design, which in turn was the 4cyl design and parts.  Henry Ford was a cheap SOB.

Yes, cooling the rear cylinders is a HUGE issue, made worse by the exhaust being routed through the water jacket  (yes they were really that foolish). My general plan is to swap the heads so they discharge to the rear and see what that gets me.  My more extreme plan involves adding water feeds to the back of the block and moving the takeoff on the heads to the center.  The ferrari V12 (&V8s) have no such issue, they use the V as a water plenum and have almost perfect heat distribution...I've been spoiled the last 20years. 

Now back to fuel injection 

mke said:

So between you and Alpha you made me go back out and re-look.....p

That's why we're all here (bad) ideas!! Honestly with a blower you could put them all in the hat and have the fuel distribution being totally fine. We did some experiments with some mechanical injected setups and even hat only had pretty even fuel distribution on the v8s. Without pics I'd be hard to say for sure, but I wouldn't discount that being an option. Though these engines only had to idle at 2k 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

Without pics I'd be hard to say for sure, but I wouldn't discount that being an option. Though these engines only had to idle at 2k 

I think this think redlines are 2k .....ok 3800 but I'm planning to get aggressive and push it all the way to 5K and with a blower that should get me around 250hp from the 800lb, 292ci lump.

The above pic was an internet grab, I've only got junk laying on the floor at this point. I loved the stock intake and exhaust manifolds so much they came off the engine and into the dumpster so I wouldn't to be tempted to use them figuring anything I make would be better....so  have a lot of freedom on setting up the intake system.

Year ago I did an EFI conversion on a mini which also has siamesed ports.  I used 2 injectors sized for around 20% DC and connected each to 2 drivers on the ECU and set it up to spray at intake valve open+20deg iirc, so only 1 valve in the port was open and I knew where the fuel was going.  Spraying in the open valve made it run a bit rougher when cold but it worked.  With this engine I have 240 deg vs the 180 that one had so the inject time can be longer but there I could spray toward the valve, here there will be turns in the port unless I put the injectors in the valley, which I saw someone do and he said it worked but.....

I just saw another mini conversion this time with a blower and he ran 1 injector pre-blower so TBI effectively and says it works, which means it ran and I'll probably never get more detail about how well ro even a picture. Maybe this is the best answer...downdraft carbs on a roots blower over the intake is a well proven setup, but I'm not so sure how well it works once parts are relocated and fuel need to flow sideways or uphill through cold parts.

The last 2 engines in my ferrari had blowers.

First an eaton mp90(iirc, its been a long time) which worked fine and gave 10psi but at 250-260F IAT

then a lysholmn ax2300 screw type with a water/air cooler built-in  above and gave 22-24psi@ 160F but air distribution was a bugger.  This is how I first installed it:

but the air seemed to mostly end up in the cylinders to the right where the discharge was.  I ended up moving the blower left which wasn't as pretty but did help even out the air....this was nearly 20 years ago and haltech had just released their 1st sequential capable ECU so cylinder trims were possible (MS1 was just out iirc?) ...but I'm remembering it was a straight % and unhelpful because I needed 0% at idle and like 15% at WOT so I sold that and bought a motec M800 (the only ECU I could find at the time with cyl trim maps) and pulled the car in to do the ECU upgrade.....and somehow I ended up with a V12 project.

Anyway, I fear a screw type blower on a long engine is going to cause nothing but trouble....but if I spray the fuel in above and the fuel goes where the air goes maybe it would mostly work out....I don't know....

I think a lot depends on how big the plenum below the blower is, and if the blower is mounted further front or back. I would assume having a big plenum would negate some of the issues, but never tested anything back to back. Generally though the air and fuel ends up together other than during transients.

Yah, I used to race Mk I/II Spitfires having siamesed inlets, I feel your pain.

Seems to me I recall a fellow (Chapman?) figured out that placing a divider wall down the middle of the

siamesed port gave psuedo-independent runners to minimize the charge robbing issue.