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MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
4/19/17 4:42 p.m.
AngryCorvair wrote: In reply to bigben, bluej, and SVreX: that exact situation ("can I remove parts and subtract their FMV without actually selling them?") was ruled NFG by David S. Willems himself back in 2004. I may or may not have been the person who asked the question. I don't recall ever seeing that ruling reversed, but I will admit to not paying close attention to challenge rules for the last 8 years or so.

I am not positive who said it was OK but I'm pretty sure the ruling was in regards to an interior being able to be removed just for the challenge. It may have even been Per. It stuck in my brain because it was a 180 degree flip from previous rulings.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/19/17 4:46 p.m.
AngryCorvair wrote: In reply to bigben, bluej, and SVreX: that exact situation ("can I remove parts and subtract their FMV without actually selling them?") was ruled NFG by David S. Wallens himself back in 2004. I may or may not have been the person who asked the question. I don't recall ever seeing that ruling reversed, but I will admit to not paying close attention to challenge rules for the last 8 years or so.

I know.

2004 was a long time ago.

wheels777
wheels777 SuperDork
4/19/17 5:09 p.m.
AngryCorvair wrote: In reply to bigben, bluej, and SVreX: that exact situation ("can I remove parts and subtract their FMV without actually selling them?") was ruled NFG by David S. Wallens himself back in 2004. I may or may not have been the person who asked the question. I don't recall ever seeing that ruling reversed, but I will admit to not paying close attention to challenge rules for the last 8 years or so.

That's the "rock" I've been under. No sale, no jingle. If this stands, we take a $210.08 swing for the good on the $2018 car. Nice. I'll be looking for a "scoop" for $2017. We are not close to the max sell down.

bigben
bigben New Reader
4/19/17 6:17 p.m.

Sorry, I'm not up on my acronyms. What does NFG mean? Is that like a "Negative Ghost Rider" (but that would be NGB)

Of course if we're in the need of loop holes, one could always find someone local to sell the parts to and then buy them back after the Challenge is over.

RevRico
RevRico SuperDork
4/19/17 6:25 p.m.

Say we cast parts for our vehicle, how does that affect the budget? Scrap weight?

EastCoastMojo
EastCoastMojo Mod Squad
4/19/17 6:46 p.m.
bigben wrote: Sorry, I'm not up on my acronyms. What does NFG mean? Is that like a "Negative Ghost Rider" (but that would be NGB)

No Berkleying Good?

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/19/17 6:47 p.m.

Hi all, I just got to the Mitty, where I'll be pretty busy for a few days. Not ignoring you, and I've been trying to stay on top of this thread, but it's been a busy few days. I'll go through again tonight and answer the easier questions.

Regarding the FMV for stuff you removed from your car: in hindsight that's quite the can of worms, and allowing a dude to swap door panels does seem to create quite the loophole. I'm going to spend a few days thinking and talking to Challenge regulars offline, then figure out a more elegant way to allow door panels to be traded but not allow somebody to sell themselves their "rare vintage ashtray" for $1008.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/19/17 8:34 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

You're getting wiser in your old age!

bluej
bluej UltraDork
4/19/17 8:59 p.m.

Sounds great, thank you Tom!

QuasiMofo
QuasiMofo MegaDork
4/22/17 12:28 p.m.

I have acquired the basis for a possible $2018 build. It is my plan to begin working on it shortly after completing the CaMofos engine swap. I have emailed Rick with the same basic question because I forgot the Supremely Supreme Court was in session.

My question:

Where are we on Locosts?

In years gone by we had specific verbiage including them. I did not notice the mention of them this time through.

Thank you in advance.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 UltimaDork
4/22/17 1:24 p.m.

stock replacement brake parts

I can go either way on this..

We are swapping in an 8.8 rear to the amc. This 8.8 id disc brake equipped. The rear end swap is for gears and posi, but the rear discs could be seen as a brake upgrade since we originally had drums back there.

Id like to replace the hoses. Pads and rotors are fine, but hoses are past due for changing. Are stock rubber explorer hoses budget exempt in this scenario?

Stampie
Stampie Dork
4/22/17 4:25 p.m.

I am humbled to bring forth to the Great Challenge Supreme Court a most simple case of:

All you can carry junkyard sales

In this instance the local yard was having an all you can carry for $65. I went with a friend who wanted Jeep steering parts. We agreed to half the $65 for everything I carried out. Since it was all you can carry then in my simpleton mind weight should be the deciding factor in figuring cost.

I got the following for $32.50:

1 Nissan V6 Distributor
4 GM Fuel Injection Relays
8 GM Wiring Terminal Blocks
1 3 foot wire

The total weight of everything I got was 6lbs 10oz. The distributor weighed 2lbs. The relays weighed 13oz. The terminal blocks weighed 3lbs 12oz and the missing ounce was the wiring I used to make a parts stringer like a fish stringer.

I did the math by weight percentage and number of units. Rounding to the nearest cent gets the following prices per part.

Distributor $9.81
Relay $1.00 each
Terminal $2.30 each
Wire $0.31

That total adds up to $32.52. I'll donate the extra 2 cents to Ovid_and_Flem so that they'll have 2 cents worth giving.

Does the mighty Tom of the GRM Challenge Supreme Court agree with this accounting method?

westsidetalon
westsidetalon Reader
4/23/17 8:59 a.m.

2 cars for $1000, which will be built into 1 car, is my max recoup $500?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/23/17 9:25 a.m.

In reply to westsidetalon:

No, your max recoup would be $1000

darkbuddha
darkbuddha HalfDork
4/23/17 2:20 p.m.
Tom Suddard wrote: Regarding the FMV for stuff you removed from your car: in hindsight that's quite the can of worms, and allowing a dude to swap door panels does seem to create quite the loophole. I'm going to spend a few days thinking and talking to Challenge regulars offline, then figure out a more elegant way to allow door panels to be traded but not allow somebody to sell themselves their "rare vintage ashtray" for $1008.

Uh, sorry I asked? Maybe it's as simple as allowing zero-sum trades, but not permitting outright budget recoup?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/23/17 4:16 p.m.

In reply to darkbuddha:

Pretty sure your question created a rulemaker's conundrum for Tom and the staff, and they are considering the answer. We just need a little patience.

Ashyukun
Ashyukun SuperDork
4/24/17 9:35 a.m.
Stampie wrote: I am humbled to bring forth to the Great Challenge Supreme Court a most simple case of: All you can carry junkyard sales In this instance the local yard was having an all you can carry for $65. I went with a friend who wanted Jeep steering parts. We agreed to half the $65 for everything I carried out. Since it was all you can carry then in my simpleton mind weight should be the deciding factor in figuring cost. I got the following for $32.50: 1 Nissan V6 Distributor 4 GM Fuel Injection Relays 8 GM Wiring Terminal Blocks 1 3 foot wire The total weight of everything I got was 6lbs 10oz. The distributor weighed 2lbs. The relays weighed 13oz. The terminal blocks weighed 3lbs 12oz and the missing ounce was the wiring I used to make a parts stringer like a fish stringer. I did the math by weight percentage and number of units. Rounding to the nearest cent gets the following prices per part. Distributor $9.81 Relay $1.00 each Terminal $2.30 each Wire $0.31 That total adds up to $32.52. I'll donate the extra 2 cents to Ovid_and_Flem so that they'll have 2 cents worth giving. Does the mighty Tom of the GRM Challenge Supreme Court agree with this accounting method?

Heh. OK, so now we have three potential ways of handling these all-you-can-carry sales:

  1. Counted as one lot purchase- no declared individual price for any items, so if you don't sell anything off even if you use one wire you pay the full amount. But, if you sell something off for what you paid, you can zero out the whole thing and have free parts.
  2. Proportional to cost- each item you get is proportional to what the junkyard charges for each part normally knocked down by the all-you-can-carry price. (full calculation would be "Individual Part Price * [All-You-Can-Carry Price / sum of what individual parts would normally cost]). Advantage is that you get a solid discount regardless of what you sell off, disadvantage is that you can't ever zero out the purchase.
  3. Proportional to weight, as described in the post above. Advantage would be that you could buy a few heavier items and essentially knock down the price of smaller normally more expensive parts by a good bit, disadvantages would be higher proportional price for heavier things like wheels, cylinder heads, etc. and as with the proportional price option you can't even zero out the whole purchase.
SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/24/17 11:04 a.m.

I think you guys are getting a little legalistic.

Its not so much what "The Right Way" to calculate costs like that, its about having "A Reasonable Explanation" as to how you calculated the costs.

Nobody's gonna argue any of those options, and it's probably not fair to expect the staff to arbitrate every little minute detail.

Have fun. Create content for the magazine. Don't be a dick.

westsidetalon
westsidetalon Reader
4/24/17 3:07 p.m.
SVreX wrote: In reply to westsidetalon: No, your max recoup would be $1000

wow this is good news and hopefully Tommy will back that up

Lof8
Lof8 HalfDork
4/24/17 5:39 p.m.

In reply to SVreX:

Amen!

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/25/17 1:05 p.m.

Selling Parts to Yourself

The way the current ruleset is written, you may "sell" parts to your personal collection at FMV. You must have strong supporting documentation for each FMV calculation used, particularly in situations where you've sold a part to yourself. It is not my place as the judiciary to change or to write new rules, only to interpret the existing ruleset. We can discuss changing this rule at this year's town hall if you all feel passionately about it.

DO NOT BE A DICK. Seriously–your fellow competitors (and us) will crucify you if you're using this for budget shenanigans. I don't want to see you selling yourself iron heads at a $200 FMV, then buying iron heads for $10 at a swap meet to replace them.

And don't forget that $1008.50 recoup limit. That's the main governing mechanism for these shenanigans at this point. We'll see how well it works, but I'm optimistic.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/25/17 1:11 p.m.

In reply to westsidetalon:

Yes, that's correct.

Challenge Rules said: Up to half the total annual budget may be recouped by selling parts originally included with or attached to the Challenge car, related parts car(s), or related parts packages at the time of purchase. You may not factor gains or losses made from buying, selling or trading unrelated parts into your budget. You may never recoup more than a part or car’s purchase price or fair market value (whichever value you listed on your budget sheet.) You may not list fair market value instead of purchase price on your budget unless you do not have a receipt from the purchase, or depreciation/appreciation has drastically affected the car or part’s value.
Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/25/17 1:12 p.m.

In reply to Ashyukun:

Parts lots, all-you-can-carry sales, etc.

In situations like these, where it is not possible to get an itemized receipt, treat them the same way you would when you buy a parts car. Total price of the lot hits your budget, then you can sell off parts from that total until you hit your recoup limit.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/25/17 1:15 p.m.
RevRico wrote: Say we cast parts for our vehicle, how does that affect the budget? Scrap weight?

Casting your own parts.

The cost of whatever you make is the cost of whatever materials are actually on your car during the event. So if it takes a $10,000 furnace, $30 of mold release, $5000 of CNC mold-making machinery, $600 of mold-making materials, $100 of firewood, $10 of mercury to mix in because you live on the edge, and $3 of scrap metal to melt down, the budget value of that part would be $13.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/25/17 1:16 p.m.

Ok, I think I'm caught up. Let me know if I missed anything.

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