Cheap tow-pigs: Ford vs. GM

In reply to rslifkin :

Interesting to compare experiences.  I had the Hawk HP towing pads on my F350 on all 4 corners, and that truck just flat stopped.  The pads bit really well and seemed to bite harder the hotter they got.  Never experienced any fade- and this was on a 9,000 lb truck (empty weight) towing a two car hauler.  With crap in the bed, it could easily be 20,000 lbs+ rolling down the road.  And it stopped great.  I never worried about having stopping power.  Brake dust was what I'd call "acceptable" and I never had to replace rotors- though I only put about 20,000 miles on that combo.  

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Other than the rotor wear, that pretty much sums up my experiece with the Hawks.  But especially on a cold winter morning, the bite on the Carbotechs is better and doesn't ramp up quite so much with increased heat.  They do dust quite a bit more though.  The Hawks were a bit dusty, the Carbotechs are very dusty.  

I love it.  Nice score.  As I said before, not much of a TBI fan, but that was at a $3000 budget.  For $1300, nice score.

As far as wheels go, I'm a big fan of the ubiquitous Rally wheels that millions of trucks had in those years.  15x9 steelies with center caps and trim rings.

9C1 cop wheels are similar but 15x8.

Rally wheels: (this photo shows 6-lug, but millions of them came in 5-lug)

9C1 cop wheels:

Long story short, 5x5 lug wheels are everywhere.

Any 5-lug full size truck, some Astro vans, and all heavier-version full size RWD cars, like police, wagons, etc.  If I could fit those 22s on something, I would trade you some 96 Impala SS wheels for your 22s.

Just out of curiosity, what size tires are on the 22s?

(stop it curtis... you hated the 20s on your impala, you'll really hate 22s.)

My inner monologue told me to shut up.

In reply to Curtis :

I'll check the tires tomorrow & let you know. ;-)

The sad thing is I tossed out the rally center caps & trim rings from my old truck when I was cleaning the garage in IL a couple years ago. 

Curtis, in 2-3 years I'll be shopping for a tow vehicle to tow ~9k pounds on 250 mile road trips with 5+ people approximately 8 times a year. It will also be used for Home Depot Runs and some stuff locally but not daily driven. I'd like a long bed to drop a slide in camper in for roadtrips not included in the trips previously mentioned. The big qualifier is it needs to be DIY friendly and I would like to be able to maintain it so that it lasts me a lifetime. I don't care much about looks or modifying for massive power (though MPG mods would be nice) and everything else I don't like should be able to be upgraded myself.

With a $10k budget what would you get? Originally I was thinking a 7.3 Ford but now you have me thinking 6.0.

In reply to Enyar :

I'd agree with 6.0 over 7.3 in that price range.  Probably not a much higher buy-in, only a bit of cost to fix the 6.0's weak points and then much better power in return. 

In reply to rslifkin :

The non-bulletproofed 6.0s seem to be substantially cheaper on average than the 7.3s around here, comparing like condition and mileage, and a lot easier to find in decent shape these days to boot. 

BUT...Their reputation scares the E36 M3 out of me. Bulletproofing one looks like several thousand dollars in parts cost alone, plus, as I understand it, the cab needs to come off to install all the stuff (as well as for a lot of other major service items, it seems), which probably means paying someone else to do it if you don't have a lift in your garage. Not what I would call DIY friendly. You can always buy one with all of the bulletproofing mods already done, I suppose, but that of course reflects in the asking price, at which point you're well into clean Duramax, Cummins, or 7.3 territory.

A bulletproofed 6.0 is just as durable as a 7.3, but with more power.  Realistically, at stock power, most 6.0 issues are the EGR coolers, sometimes injectors, etc.  The head gaskets and studs aren't terribly necessary if you're not turning up the power.  

In reply to Furious_E :

I actually wouldn't be opposed to that kind of upgrades in exchange for a better motor in the future. Like I said I would ideally keep the truck for the rest of my life for tow duty so I could do a couple other upgrades at that time to make it more road trip friendly. Would you get a dually?

TLDR - I'm from the east coast of Florida but currently live on the west coast. I've come to like the west coast much much more EXCEPT for during the summer it's difficult to make the weekend Bahamas dive/fishing runs like I used to. Instead of moving back I think I am jsut going to get a big ol truck to tow the boat back in forth the 6-8 times we go during the summer. The boat would be around 10k pounds fully loaded and the trip is about 220 miles one way. 

Agreed on the 6.0L vs 7.3L.  As long as it has been bulletproofed, which is NOT cheap.  A few aftermarket suppliers offer bulletproofed parts and they are wicked expensive.  For a stock replacement EGR cooler and oil cooler, you're looking at $1000 in parts alone and some pretty good surgery to replace (at least the EGR cooler).

If you take it to a shop and say "bulletproof it" you're looking at an easy $3500.  Its one of the reasons I still recommend an LB7 Duramax because even if you have to pay a shop to do injectors its often less money than just an EGR cooler on a 6.0L.  And an LB7 injector gives you plenty of warning.  An EGR cooler sometimes let's you know it has failed by hyrdrolocking the engine.

Don't go nuts modifying a 6.0L.  They only have 4 head bolts per cylinder.  Replacing the head gaskets requires removing the cab from the frame.

In the $10k range, I would honestly focus on the nicest Duramax LBZ/LLY you can find.  Allison transmission, bulletproof diesel from the factory.  Most 6.0L sales are either not yet bulletproofed (expect a large repair bill soon) or they have been bulletproofed with unknown skill and sellers are trying to recoup their investment.  That desire to recoup investment battles with their poor reputation for market value and you sometimes have trouble finding a bargain that makes you feel warm and fuzzy.

Just yesterday, actually, I passed on a $3200 6.0L stroke van with 140k because it didn't have the upgrades, but I gave considerable thought to a $7500 LB7 Dmax truck with 150k (and new injectors) but didn't buy it because I'm really looking for a van.

And I will say it again... given their torque curves, ANY of the diesels from the 6.5TD or newer will have more than enough power and torque for towing 10k lbs.  I towed a 10k travel trailer with a 6.5 for years and never met a mountain (including the rockies, the Cascades, the Smokies, and the Appalachians) that it couldn't top at or above the speed limit.  I would actually have truckers radio me on the CB and ask what I had done to it as I passed them going up mountains.  The answer was usually something like "well, I changed the oil last week."  The only modification to the truck was the CB radio and a brake controller.

But honestly... despite the fact that I prefer the Ford TRUCK that goes around it, if you gave me $10k to buy a diesel, I would buy an LLY/LBZ Dmax hands down.  The only other thing I would consider in that range is a squeaky clean 7.3L with low-ish miles, but then you're paying the novelty tax since there aren't many of those around.  I would only look at a 6.0L if the bulletproofing had already been done with receipts, and done by a reputable shop... but then you're paying the "I have something special" tax.  I think you'll get more for your money with an LLY/LBZ

If you don't mind gas-like MPG, an LMM is equally bulletproof, but the DPF kills MPG hardcore.  I can get nearly 20 MPG in an LB7 empty, but best I have seen in an LMM is 14.

I might also consider a Cummins in that range provided it has the NV5600 transmission.  But given their resale value and the fact that most Dodge trucks decay much faster, finding a bargain will be difficult.  I would say keep your eyes peeled for one, but don't get your hopes up.  The Dodge automatics are on the opposite end of the spectrum from the Allison when comparing the big three truck brands.  Expect failures and expect them to be the expensive kind.  In my years running transmission shops, I would say the average cost to rebuild (remove, repair, replace) a Ford 4R100 was in the $1800-2400 range.  For 47RE Dodges, you can often expect $3500 minimum.  The parts themselves are more expensive, and the chances of a hard part failure are almost certain.  Dodge focused on engineering clutches and line pressures to support the power but didn't get as much of the hard parts engineering right.  What happens is the clutches last forever but they beat the crap out of the steel. Ford and GM focused on bulletproof hard parts, so what usually happens is they last a long time but the clutches wear out and need to be replaced.  That second scenario is MUCH cheaper.  Its pretty easy to upgrade Ford and GM transmission reliability with easy things: programming and valve bodies.  You can't upgrade a Dodge transmission without addressing the weaker guts which requires very expensive upgraded parts and a complete teardown.  For that reason, I don't recommend a Cummins with an Auto.

The condensed version:  LLY/LBZ will likely get you an easy, repeatable purchase with plenty on the market.  6.0L with upgrades will be equally nice, but the market is all over the place.  Cummins with a 6-speed is equally viable, but good luck finding the same amount of quality/miles in the truck part when shopping.  Shop for an LLY/LBZ, but don't discount an upgaded 6.0L stroke, a low-mileage grandpa-owned 7.3L, or Cummins/6speed if they happen to turn up in your search

In reply to Furious_E :

Just do EGR and oil cooler on the 6.0 and you'll be okay.Headstuds are not necessary on a stock truck, and the 6.0 has plenty of power stock. Mine just had the bulletproof egr and oil cooler and that's it. It was an 06 and never had many issues. I had records from the beginning of its life because I bought it from the original owner. It had 210k+ when it was stolen from me. I've been told the 05-07 6.0's are more reliable than the 03-04. My stock 7.3 is super slow compared to the 6.0 truck I had. I honestly still miss it. 

In reply to yupididit :

I agree that the 6.0L engine itself is an awesome piece.  Once you fix those troubles its a very nice motor.

In reply to Curtis :

Curtis, have you seen this van? Looks like it might be right up your alley. 

Dmax is kinda where I was going with the above, though. Unless you REALLY prefer the Ford truck, why not just get a Dmax and skip all the hassle that comes with the 6.0 in the first place? Plus, then you get the Allison behind it, which really is wonderful for an auto. What do you make of the supposed head gasket issues on the LLY? Seems largely overblown, but I do see enough of them listed with recent head gasket replacements to give me at least a little bit of pause.

And take my opinions with a huge grain of salt, my diesel experience is pretty much limited to a handful of Duramax trucks I've gone to look at, the 5.9 24 valve Cummins we have at work, and the LB7 Dmax my buddy's dad used to have.  Just one of the many eclectic options I've been considering as a tow pig/dd to replace my XJ. 

My issue shopping these before was that most the 10k Duramax trucks have a LOT of miles and are having injector issues RIGHT NOW or potentially need a trans rebuild because they have over 200k miles. Doing the injectors means you know its done so that doesn't bother me it just means its not really a 10k truck

Nice low mileage 7.3L but doesn't satisfy your 5-person needs. But if you could find this as an extended cab long bed, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Not a bad bet, but it makes me wonder how it was driven to need a new Allison at 75k. Fits your 5-person rule, but not long bed.

One of the things you'll run into is that Chevy didn't offer much in the way of extended cab long bed.  Ford did for a bit longer but aren't many of them.

You'll find plenty of 1-ton crew cab long beds, but 90% will be dually which is overkill.  Do you already have the slide-in?  Might it be possible to find an adequate 6.5' slide in, or are you set on 8'?  The reason I ask is because of the above thing.  Truck beds keep getting smaller these days.  Its just getting harder to find extended cab or crew cab trucks with long beds because the market doesn't want the big turning radius and their need for 8' beds seems to be waning.

As you look at the trucks, keep in mind that there are big differences in the weight class.  Chevy now has a 1500HD that is almost identical to a 3500SRW truck that it did in the late 90s/early 00s.  They played around with light and heavy 1/2, light and heavy 3/4, and light and heavy 1-ton classifications.  I say that so you don't get caught up in nomenclature.  You might think you don't need a 1-ton truck, but it might just be a 3/4 with a different sticker.  I was looking for a 3/4 when I bought my F150, but its functionally a 3/4 because its the "heavy duty 1/2."  They basically took an F150, boxed the frame, and stuffed it full of F250 axles, brakes, springs, and transmission.  Use the GVWR to help you find what you are looking for and skip the badge on the side.

I'll also add that a 1/2 ton from the last 5 years will likely outperform towing duties than many 3/4s from 15 years ago.

Furious_E said:

In reply to Curtis :

Curtis, have you seen this van? Looks like it might be right up your alley. 

Hmmmm... Worth a look.  Thanks.

Yeah the newer halftons are pretty impressive being able to actually handle 10k etc

Jaynen said:

My issue shopping these before was that most the 10k Duramax trucks have a LOT of miles and are having injector issues RIGHT NOW or potentially need a trans rebuild because they have over 200k miles. Doing the injectors means you know its done so that doesn't bother me it just means its not really a 10k truck

Then (no offense intended) you're looking at the wrong Dmax trucks.  LLY/LBZ trucks easily go 300k without injector failure.  Dad currently has an 04 LB7 with 30-over injectors, 5 position chip, exhaust, and Airdog fuel pump that puts 932 dyno-proven torques to the wheels.  It has 140k on it and its only worth about $10k.  I wish he'd sell it to me, but its not for sale.

Here is a refrigerated box on a 2500 Dmax with under 60k for $9900.  Sell the fridge box and buy a bed, drive it for 100k before replacing injectors.  This is a friggin STEAL at under $10k

Here isn't a bad deal... this is much like my Dad's truck without the upgrades.  Again, not long bed, but used for example

Offer this guy $11k. Best Dmax they put out in my opinion

Bingo. Long bed, super low miles, extended cab. Long time before injectors go bad

IMO, the big difference between a half ton and a 3/4 or bigger isn't just the outright capability.  It's duty cycle.  The 3/4 ton will generally be better behaved and more durable if it's being used heavily day in and day out while the half ton is often built with the idea of its full abilities only being used here and there.  

Curtis said:

Jaynen said:

My issue shopping these before was that most the 10k Duramax trucks have a LOT of miles and are having injector issues RIGHT NOW or potentially need a trans rebuild because they have over 200k miles. Doing the injectors means you know its done so that doesn't bother me it just means its not really a 10k truck

Then (no offense intended) you're looking at the wrong Dmax trucks.  LLY/LBZ trucks easily go 300k without injector failure.  Dad currently has an 04 LB7 with 30-over injectors, 5 position chip, exhaust, and Airdog fuel pump that puts 932 dyno-proven torques to the wheels.  It has 140k on it and its only worth about $10k.  I wish he'd sell it to me, but its not for sale.

Here is a refrigerated box on a 2500 Dmax with under 60k for $9900.  Sell the fridge box and buy a bed, drive it for 100k before replacing injectors.  This is a friggin STEAL at under $10k

Here isn't a bad deal... this is much like my Dad's truck without the upgrades.  Again, not long bed, but used for example

Offer this guy $11k. Best Dmax they put out in my opinion

Bingo. Long bed, super low miles, extended cab. Long time before injectors go bad

 

These are just what was on craigslist around me in NC. I personally don't want a long bed but think I might need a crew the extended cabs are a little small for car seats/kids. The 05 I think is the one with the best motor right?

I would happily buy any of those. I think I talked myself out of it last time because I was able to find 3/4ton burbans sometimes even with the 8.1 for less than 5k, so paying another 5k for the bed and the duramax was questionable for a tow only vehicle. If it was a daily as well I think well worth it. But then you have the option of goosenecks/5th wheels etc too

Honestly what keeps me in ford trucks is the interior. Chevy and dodge may use great drivetrain but I can't stand their interior. 

yupididit said:

Honestly what keeps me in ford trucks is the interior. Chevy and dodge may use great drivetrain but I can't stand their interior. 

This ^^^   

Amen

Jaynen said:

These are just what was on craigslist around me in NC. I personally don't want a long bed but think I might need a crew the extended cabs are a little small for car seats/kids. The 05 I think is the one with the best motor right?

Best is relative, but yes.

Mid 04 through end of 05 was the LLY.  It has upgraded (more reliable) injectors and they have been moved to outside the valve covers for much easier servicing, but they likely won't ever need it.  It also added  a VVT Garret turbo and some tune changes.

Starting in late 05 through mid 07 was the LLY/LBZ.  They are grouped together because they are virtually the same, but for the sake of generalization.  Some vehicles continued to call it the LLY (like the vans) but it is basically an LBZ engine with an LLY tune.  Here is a list of upgrades that the LLY/LBZ gets over the earlier LB7: (from wiki)

• Cylinder block casting and machining changes strengthen the bottom of the cylinder bores to support increased power and torque
• Upgraded main bearing material increases durability
• Revised piston design lowers compression ratio to 16.8:1 from 17.5:1
• Piston pin bore diameter increased for increased strength
• Connecting rod “ I ” section is thicker for increased strength
• Cylinder heads revised to accommodate lower compression and reduced cylinder firing pressure
• Maximum injection pressure increased from 23,000 psi (1,585.8 bar) to more than 26,000 psi (1,792.6 bar)
• Fuel delivered via higher-pressure pump, fuel rails, distribution lines and all-new, seven-hole fuel injectors
• Fuel injectors spray directly onto glow plugs, providing faster, better-quality starts and more complete cold-start combustion for reduced emissions
• Improved glow plugs heat up faster through an independent controller
• Revised variable-geometry turbocharger is aerodynamically more efficient to help deliver smooth and immediate response and lower emissions
• Air induction system re-tuned to enhance quietness
• EGR has larger cooler to bring more exhaust into the system
• First application of new, 32-bit E35 controller, which adjusts and compensates for the fuel flow to bolster efficiency and reduce emissions"

The last LLY/LBZ was mid to late 07.  After that they changed to the LMM which is a brilliant and lovely Duramax, but in compliance with the new EPA regs for 08 it includes a DPF.  It kills MPG.  As a diesel, it's wonderful and very powerful, but there are penalties at the pump.

So any of the LLY/LBZ trucks from mid 04 through late 07 are the sweethearts.  Truth be told, the earlier LB7 is also highly sought after for the tuners.  They're easy to tune and make big power, and once you've tackled the injector replacement they're every bit as wonderful as the others for tow duty.  I would rather have an LB7 with upgraded injectors than a 6.0L stroke that has been bulletproofed.