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noisycricket
noisycricket Reader
2/6/09 9:41 p.m.

I got a 2.3t for a Holley Blue fuel pump in trade. Probably not a typical transaction but $200-300 is a common figure. The main problem with the 2.3t, as with most four-bangers, is getting adequate clutch and/or transmission behind it, cheaply.

In the case of the 2.3t, the bellhousing is tiny and doesn't allow much clutch, even though pretty much any trans that bolts to a 5.0 bellhousing will bolt to it. (Same 10 spline input size, at least on mine) The Ford C4 can be bolted up IF you can hunt down a rare bellhousing from a one year only Pinto. Said bellhousings can be found on eBay but they generally are far from cheap.

In the case of the VW and Mazda F2T, the transmissions are garbage.

In the case of the Turbo Dodge, the 5 speeds are kinda junk but the autos are actually pretty sweet.

Anything GM based has the advantage of having many options for cheap, beefy transmissions, since GM basically used three bellhousing bolt patterns (Chevy, Everyone Else, and 60-degree) and you can adapt between them with adapter plates or different cases, as need be.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
2/6/09 9:52 p.m.

I sold my last three 2.3T's for $1000 each. Stock 87/88 motors running with harness/ECU. That unfortunately is typical for up here. I also bought a running EFI 5.0 with AOD for $200 and traded a used fender for another running non-roller 302. Those fortunately are typical for around here.

Cheap and Lots of power = V8 every time.

noisycricket
noisycricket Reader
2/6/09 10:05 p.m.

I think I paid $400 for the last Ford V8 I bought, and it was a pre roller shortblock that turned out to be worn enough that a .040 overbore wouldn't be enough, so I scrapped it and ate the loss.

Living in da' heart of 5.0 country makes life hell for Ford parts Must be nice to live where you can pick them up all day long for pocket change, and factory 15x7s for $20 a pop. (Last set I saw on craigslist was $200 and the ad was taken down the next day)

MikeSVO
MikeSVO Reader
2/6/09 10:31 p.m.

There are some good clutch options we use, but still, for big power (I mean at LEAST 500 hp), a 2.3t Ford, or any other 4 banger IMO, isn't really what you probably want.

I mean, if your goal is to make big power for short money, I'd say it's better to start bigger. You figure a 2.3 at ~30 PSI would theoretically be something like a 420 ci N/A motor (just throwing out numbers), why not start with that and then boost it? I don't think you'd have too much trouble feeding any big ol' motor up to maybe 10 psi, and assuming you have means to tune it...heck, your 460 (like someone else mentioned) just became a whoooolllee lot bigger. And that would be cheap, too.

I like the 2.3t's because they're cheap and strong. To most V8 guys, they're just crappy little motors that don't make much power. But really...is making enough power the problem these days? You give your typical Fox Mustang a solid, legit 350 whp and you're going to in the mid/low 12's all day long. And that's no sweat with a stock 2.3t longblock.

Trans_Maro
Trans_Maro PowerDork
2/6/09 10:43 p.m.

Find a cop car..

I got a 351 Windsor for my wife's 1948 Chevy for $500.00

Even came with the car so I could pull all the wiring I wanted.

Cops cars usually come with respectable engines and plenty of other good donor parts like limited slip diffs, IIRC this engine is supposed to be around 250 - 275 hp in stock form.

Shawn

ArtOfRuin
ArtOfRuin HalfDork
2/6/09 11:02 p.m.
RXBeetle wrote: Mazda 13B, bridge port, Holset turbo, Megasquirt. If you aren't making over 400hp you're doing it wrong. The fuel cost will make a LS9 look cheap though.

Ooh, this one sounds interesting! Two questions:

1) Is this starting with a turbo or non-turbo? I've yet to see a 13BT go for less than $1000.

2) Don't bridgeported engines idle at some ridiculous RPM (2000rpm is what one rotorhead told me)?

joey48442
joey48442 Dork
2/6/09 11:59 p.m.
P71 wrote Come on man don't even start with your bullE36 M3 again.

You are so angry!

Joey

wheels777
wheels777 HalfDork
2/7/09 5:29 a.m.

Chevy 350

wheels777
wheels777 Dork
2/7/09 5:32 a.m.

Chevy 350 You can make big power cheap, AND you can install a transmission that can handle the power cheap.

bamalama
bamalama Reader
2/7/09 12:11 p.m.
P71 wrote: I sold my last three 2.3T's for $1000 each. Stock 87/88 motors running with harness/ECU. That unfortunately *is* typical for up here.

A whole 87-88 Turbo Coupe goes for less than that down here.

A 2.3T is only fun in a tiny car. My SVO would have been a lot more fun with a turbo 5.0L.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair Dork
2/7/09 1:01 p.m.
93celicaGT2 wrote:
AngryCorvair wrote: hmmm, there's always at least a few 4g63t's at the Challenge. that's generally my litmus test for whether or not something can be made fast for cheap.
I think they usually come out of cheap clapped out cars.... When you buy a 4g63T by itself, guaranteed to run good all that jazz.... it's a fairly pretty penny.

i am not familiar with this concept. what is buying an engine that's not still installed in a cheap clapped out car?

Moparman
Moparman New Reader
2/7/09 3:22 p.m.
noisycricket wrote: I got a 2.3t for a Holley Blue fuel pump in trade. Probably not a typical transaction but $200-300 is a common figure. The main problem with the 2.3t, as with most four-bangers, is getting adequate clutch and/or transmission behind it, cheaply. In the case of the 2.3t, the bellhousing is tiny and doesn't allow much clutch, even though pretty much any trans that bolts to a 5.0 bellhousing will bolt to it. (Same 10 spline input size, at least on mine) The Ford C4 can be bolted up IF you can hunt down a rare bellhousing from a one year only Pinto. Said bellhousings can be found on eBay but they generally are far from cheap. In the case of the VW and Mazda F2T, the transmissions are garbage. In the case of the Turbo Dodge, the 5 speeds are kinda junk but the autos are actually pretty sweet. Anything GM based has the advantage of having many options for cheap, beefy transmissions, since GM basically used three bellhousing bolt patterns (Chevy, Everyone Else, and 60-degree) and you can adapt between them with adapter plates or different cases, as need be.

The Mopar A555 and A568 5-speeds can take over 400hp. The autos are robust, but are hard to cool in fwd applications (V6 minivans would trash them in under 60K). Add a tranny cooler and the old three-speed auto is newrly bullet proof. Torqueflite lives!

Moparman
Moparman New Reader
2/7/09 3:24 p.m.

A junkyard turbo 2.2 can be had for under $200 and 300 hp is about $600 bucks away.

MikeSVO
MikeSVO New Reader
2/7/09 6:09 p.m.

$350 stock 2.3t with tranny + $150 intercooler, $60 chip, $60 in head work, $100 injectors =

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/71-Pinto-Dyno-Day-23_114580.htm

Good bang for the buck, but it's still not BIG power. In the end, 'there's no replacement...'.

noisycricket
noisycricket Reader
2/7/09 6:16 p.m.
ArtOfRuin wrote:
RXBeetle wrote: Mazda 13B, bridge port, Holset turbo, Megasquirt. If you aren't making over 400hp you're doing it wrong. The fuel cost will make a LS9 look cheap though.
Ooh, this one sounds interesting! Two questions: 1) Is this starting with a turbo or non-turbo? I've yet to see a 13BT go for less than $1000. 2) Don't bridgeported engines idle at some ridiculous RPM (2000rpm is what one rotorhead told me)?

If you have fuel injection, you should have no trouble idling below 1500. I had a peripheral port that idled at 700.

The big big big issue with high power (350+ hp) rotaries, is that misfires under high boost can and do result in an instant engine kit. (Glue the pieces together and you have an engine) The shock loading hammers the internal gears under sustained misfire at high RPM, and the lack of combustion can mean you have less residual exhaust gases than you have tuned for resulting in detonation.

One local guy cracked three end housings in quick succession on his half bridge 13BT (the later ones, with the supposedly extra strong housings) before more or less saying "screw this"... it is not a simple road.

neon4891
neon4891 MegaDork
2/7/09 10:19 p.m.

junk yard chevy 350, junk yard vortec heads, a good cam/intake/carb combo. 400-500 HP is easy, just depends on how high strung you want the engine.

Not sure what you will drop for the short block or heads, as this veries with local market conditions. High rise dual plane intake, $100-$200 new, cam $50 and up, and for carb, too many veriables.

To me the biggest veriable is the rotating assembly. Is it good to go, do you need new rings all the way up to a new crank and all. But if you drop a little extra here, it will be all the more durable in the long run

maroon92
maroon92 SuperDork
2/7/09 10:40 p.m.

yeah yeah, 350, 302....boring

I will second (third?) the 2.3 Turbo argument...cheap speed.

oh, and I agree about Ford 460's...I even have one for sale if someone wants to test the theory.

mrdontplay
mrdontplay New Reader
2/7/09 11:04 p.m.

honda D series. ebay piping, ebay manifold, DSM turbo, DSM injectors, download a free tune.

MikeSVO
MikeSVO Reader
2/8/09 1:39 a.m.

D-series might be the cheap Honda motor, but it doesn't come close to hanging with a Mopar 2.2, Ford 2.3, or Mitsu 4G63 in terms of bang for the buck. The only reason the D-series stuff (and most of the Honda stuff) is relevant is because the wrappers they came in are featherweights.

When my buddy waxed my SVO in his turbo D16 hatch, I told him it was because the weight difference - his hatch was nearly a thousand pounds lighter than my Fox bodied SVO. So while I was putting an SVO motor in a Pinto, he was putting together his 'built' D-series motor. But it didn't matter...I still beat him with a junkyard motor. We weighed our cars on the same scale on the same night; he was 2200 even, and I was 2280. He ran a 8.0 flat in the eighth on short slicks with a hardly-streetable spool; I ran a 7.85 in the same trim I drove the car to work in.

I guess it depends on what 'big' power is to you. 450 legit wheel hp to me is where big power starts. Most 4-bangers are either grenades at that point or are way past 'cheap'.

mrdontplay
mrdontplay New Reader
2/8/09 1:56 a.m.

It's kind of a hard question when it's regardless of application. I just through another one out there. A guy I know has a D-series in a 4 door civic and runs high 13s. He has about $1500 in it, and thats including the price of the car.

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
2/8/09 11:01 a.m.

High 13's isn't "Big power". If you don't have to have a rollbar, it's not fast enough.

92dxman
92dxman Reader
2/8/09 11:32 a.m.

Honda B-Series. Add boost and go. This might be a longshot but what about the Volvo BF 4 cyl turbo motors (did I get the Volvo lingo right)?

Travis_K
Travis_K Reader
2/8/09 2:08 p.m.
neon4891 wrote: junk yard chevy 350, junk yard vortec heads, Not sure what you will drop for the short block or heads, as this veries with local market conditions.

About $75 for the heads and $100 for the short block here. 4g63s are not junkyard engines here, they rarely show up, and if they do they are gone within hours. On the other hand, 2.3 turbo fords go to the crusher complete except for injectors and turbo. Lt1s and 5.0 fords are also cheap, and even 4.8/5.3/6.0 long blocks (they seem to be prone to engine fires, so the rest of the engine is a bit too melted to use).

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 HalfDork
2/9/09 10:00 a.m.
mrdontplay wrote: It's kind of a hard question when it's regardless of application. I just through another one out there. A guy I know has a D-series in a 4 door civic and runs high 13s. He has about $1500 in it, and thats including the price of the car.

I ran an 11.876 @ 127 in a D16Y8 1g CRX for under $2500 total price including car. Definitely not something i'll try again, the car was the scariest piece of E36 M3 i've ever driven.

I doubt it was even making 300whp.

And then i was the idiot that after i almost killed myself in THAT car... decided it'd be a GREAT idea to build a 2g CRX HF with a a high compression LS Vtec on spray! I'm still to this day not sure which was scarier. The LS Vtec dyno'd over 200whp n/a, and i had a 125 shot on it. I only had the balls to drive that car for about 2 months before i parted it out. I wouldn't have sold that thing to anyone for any amount of money and kept it on my conscience.

D-series cannot hold up to B-series unless you throw a LOT of money at them. Your average built D-series will get eaten alive by a stock B18B with an ebay kit and an FMU.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 HalfDork
2/9/09 10:03 a.m.
92dxman wrote: Honda B-Series. Add boost and go. This might be a longshot but what about the Volvo BF 4 cyl turbo motors (did I get the Volvo lingo right)?

Truth. Even a stock B16 in an EG hatch with a turbo kit and tuned on Crome will knock on the door to 11s.

And now for something completely different:

Saab 2.3T motors, preferably the older ones out of the 9000 Aeros. STUPIDLY strong bottom end, and will make fairly ridiculous torque even with stock turbo and fuel.

We've all seen what Nordic, Jakstone, and MapTun can do with them.... throw in some junkyard ingenuity and a Holset HX35 or something, and have a ball.

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