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iceracer
iceracer MegaDork
11/19/20 2:21 p.m.

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

The Ford transmission in the Focus and Fiesta was indeed a DCT.  It used a dry clutch unlike others

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Reader
11/19/20 7:13 p.m.
350z247 said:

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Agreed. If I were building a racecar Cayman, I would 100% start with a PDK car; if I were buying a weekend Boxster, I'd get a manual. Same goes for an M3 or anyother car that offers both options.

It's also worth noting that Porsche's manual transmissions have had their own set of issues.  A bunch of the 981 GT4's had the third gear ring shearing off.  It was a big enough deal that they had a recall to address it.

One other thing on my mind with respect to the PDK.  In terms of skill development, the PDK has actually made me a better driver on the track.  Like other complex activities like playing piano or golf, the only way to learn to be fast on the track is to take the process apart into small pieces and work on each one individually.  Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 hour rule is also in play.  After several years of driving manual transmissions on the track, the PDK let me focus 100% on steering, throttle and braking.  Most good drivers would admit that those activities alone take many hours (months? years? lifetimes?) to really master.  Now when I go back to the manual tranny, the steering/throttle/braking are much more in my muscle memory, and I can devote more mental energy to proper shifting and heel/toe.  Without a doubt my lap times have dropped even when I'm not in the car with the PDK.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
11/19/20 7:42 p.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to spacecadet (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, it is a dual clutch.  I know the people who worked on it.

 

For the record, I don't actively hate them.  I'm sure they were just working to a spec.

 

But DAMN.  The implementation was clearly an American one.

 

Let me explain.  American automatic (automated) transmission shift schedules are generally obstinate in how they are tuned for CAFE numbers over all else.  All of my really good automatic experiences have been European, specifically Volvo.  They calibrate to make a good driving experience, and fuel economy numbers fall where they may.

 

My direct experience was with a '14 Focus 2.0/auto, that I spent much time with while my current Volvo was between engines.  There were many times, going uphill, where depressing the accelerator was mainly depressing the driver, as the engine was already producing all the torque it was gonna at that speed but the trans controller would REFUSE to downshift, and the car was slowing more and more, until finally it would kick down and go from about 1500rpm to near redline, at which point that was WAY TOO MANY GEARS, and it would upshift again.  Atrocious.  And no manual flappy paddles to bypass that programming, because, as you pointed out, that wasn't the point.

 

An aside... I got free rein with the Focus, because of the two loaners we had at the time, we always gave out the '13 Fit first, specifically because people complained so much about the Focus's trans, so it was generally always there for the taking.  People didn't like that it doesn't drive like a "normal" automatic.  IMO it drives like a manual trans, and people who creep 6-12 inches forward every few seconds at traffic lights should get a special level of hell in the afterlife)

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
11/20/20 8:19 a.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

What are you using for a controller? I noticed that MaxxECU supports DSG as well as a whole lot of engine controls I am interested in.

 

i generally thought the concept was neat, then I rode in an Evo X on course and witnessed the driver's ability to upshift and downshift in places where in a traditional manual you'd run to the limiter, and was stunned, shocked, and realized what I needed in my life.

I am using HTG's DCT controller, it's a full standalone controller that deletes the stock mech computer. Most standalone will only output CAN messages to a stock mech/TCU and offer absolutely no control. In testing some of these "solutions" it usually is only outputting a few simple things like engine load, rpm, brake signal and nothing else. Many times the TCU needs to be custom tuned to deal with it, and the flash solutions are IMO pretty crappy for a race car where you may want to change things depending on conditions (even in my simple drag racing setup). So "supports DSG" is generic and CYA before pulling the trigger on a solution. That being said the maxxecu seems like a decent standalone from the few that I've tuned. Only advantage I see vs the ms3 pro I normally use is native DBW and some pre-populated CAN setups.

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/20/20 11:13 a.m.

I've invented a new TLA: LLP!

Left Leg Privilege.

This thread? We gots it. laugh

iceracer
iceracer MegaDork
11/20/20 11:17 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

There seems to be a lot variation in the quality of shifting in the Focus/Fiesta dct.   Apparently I was lucky.   I had two. The '11 was flawless for 42k when it got totaled.  the earl '13/late'12 was ok until I got an oil leak.  I got the clutch and seal replaced under Fords program.   It shifted fine and I intended to keep it but the FiST showed up.   No regrets.

Vigo (Forum Supporter)
Vigo (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/20/20 11:24 a.m.

I recently drove my buddy's mid-90s Caravan that we turbo and manual swapped. It has a ceramic puck clutch and it's almost impossible to avoid SOME clutch chatter towards the end of the release. Since we're talking about early DCT Fords, it reminded me of that van and a made-up scenario where i chatter the clutch out to get rolling and say "wow, this thing drives like a car 20 years newer!". 

It also drives like a car breathing three atmospheres of pressure, so.. upside. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
11/20/20 1:05 p.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

Drive by wire and CAN setups are exactly the things I am interested in.  Also, on board wideband control

I might bend your ear about their systems when I get more serious (meaning, have free funds available so making a decision is relevant)

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) Dork
11/20/20 1:26 p.m.

Honestly on board wideband should be at the bottom of the list. If you need a cheap one, sure it's integrated but if you need one that's actually pretty good, you need to buy a good one anyway and the hw in the ecu (if using the Bosch chips) drives up the price a good bit. Most of the cars I tune have at least two, or many, so really not an advatage either.

BA5
BA5 Reader
3/24/21 10:59 a.m.

I love a good DCT.  Shifting is such a small component of the overall experience of driving I've never understood why people make it out like it's the defining factor of the driving experience.

Especially since I can still do the gear selection, all a DCT does is make my driving faster, crisper, and more precise.  What's not to love about it?

jkstill
jkstill New Reader
6/4/22 12:03 p.m.

If only Mazda would fit DCT on the Mazda 3 Turbo, I would be seriously tempted to buy one.

My wife would no longer need to deal with the manual transmission ( it is becoming difficult for her), and I wouldn't have to tolerate a slushbox.

A good compromise in my opinion.

jkstill
jkstill New Reader
6/4/22 12:03 p.m.

If only Mazda would fit DCT on the Mazda 3 Turbo, I would be seriously tempted to buy one.

My wife would no longer need to deal with the manual transmission ( it is becoming difficult for her), and I wouldn't have to tolerate a slushbox.

A good compromise in my opinion.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH MegaDork
6/4/22 12:55 p.m.

In the last autocross I did a Porsche Cayman with a PDK took the fastest raw time by a wide margin, over other higher-end Cayman models with H-patterns too. The driver never had to bang off the limiter or compromise on gear choice while everyone else did - I had to mostly stay in 2nd to avoid constantly running into the limiter in 1st, and I touched the limiter in 2nd a couple times too.

That said, I don't think the auto/manual focus analogy captures the difference in cost we're talking about here. That PDK is a gearbox that costs about as much as I paid for my entire car which is only 4 years older.

Automobilist
Automobilist New Reader
6/4/22 7:32 p.m.

In reply to 350z247 :

Do you manually adjust the mixture or spark advance as well?  You know, more engagement... wink

Automobilist
Automobilist New Reader
6/4/22 7:36 p.m.

In reply to BA5 :

Exactly... 

350z247
350z247 Reader
6/5/22 9:32 p.m.

In reply to Automobilist :

Because that's an "apples to apples" comparison...bravo

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
6/5/22 11:31 p.m.

In reply to Automobilist :

If you're racing a kart with a pumper carb you do.......

Tom1200
Tom1200 UltraDork
6/5/22 11:35 p.m.

I know this is an old thread but one thing I don't think I mentioned before was that for me the ADD poster kid having manual transmission in a street car helps keep me focused.

350z247
350z247 Reader
6/6/22 7:14 a.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

It definitely makes one less likely to zone out, text, call, eat, read, or whatever other distracting things people do while driving.

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