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Jerry
Jerry PowerDork
8/29/21 7:06 a.m.
MrChaos said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Vajingo said:

But... but no convertible. 

 

You also don't have to find a $1000 hardtop if you want to actually do anything with it, though.

 

$1750-2k or more at least around here

That's the going rate in Ohio from what I've read.  And I thought I read an article last week that said the Spec Frisbee autocross class in SCCA has been doing well.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
8/29/21 8:07 a.m.

In reply to Jerry :

I don't know about autocross, but I did notice that there were a lot of Frisbies at the last SCCA HPDE I attended. Noticably more than I thought I had seen in the past, although not quite as many as Miatas, but getting closer.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
8/29/21 8:54 a.m.
BoxheadTim said:

In reply to Jerry :

I don't know about autocross, but I did notice that there were a lot of Frisbies at the last SCCA HPDE I attended. Noticably more than I thought I had seen in the past, although not quite as many as Miatas, but getting closer.

There's a lot of them in autocross, they even have their own spec class in Solo Spec Coupe. 
 

I haven't checked since the event started, but SSC was the biggest class at some point during registration for nationals.

I'd rather own a coupe than a roadster. I have a Miata because it's the best bang for the buck for autocross, and in E Street there's usually lots of competition at our local events. 
 

Eventually the value delta will disappear between good condition frisbees and my 99 Sport. I'll have to consider what to do when that happens. 

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
8/29/21 9:33 a.m.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

I like roadsters, and I like Miatas - after all, I owned enough of the dang things.

But for track driving, I do think that I prefer the Frisbee, even though a Miata always feels like an old friend on the track, mainly because at least NAs and NBs don't get along that well with me wearing a helmet and a roll bar.

Floating Doc (Forum Supporter)
Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
8/29/21 11:20 a.m.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

Yes, the track driving is one of the reasons I would rather have a coupe. I won't put a roll bar in my Miata for various reasons, so no track driving. Some places will let you run on the track with just a hard top, but I wouldn't consider it.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
8/29/21 11:27 a.m.

TTNats had a healthy frisbee showing in the SSC class. 

Not that anyone asked me, but I think at this point you can K swap a frisbee.

https://kpower.industries/blogs/news/kpower-ft86-swap-faqs

lnlds
lnlds Reader
8/29/21 2:31 p.m.

I think it'd be more likely to displace spec3 spec E30 or other bmw based classes. The new gr86 seems pretty similar to an E36 M3 while the other ones seem close to an E36. 

For a lot of people having double wishbones up front is a big deal.

350z247
350z247 Reader
8/30/21 9:38 a.m.

In reply to lnlds :

I think switching from a very strong BMW brand loyalty to a Toyota is going to be a harder sell than transitioning from Mazda, especially giving up the sound of a straight six for a flat four.

wspohn
wspohn SuperDork
8/30/21 11:50 a.m.

I have always wondered why the Toyabaru twins were never offered in a convertible form even in small numbers. If it was done tastefully, they would have been great Miata competition

eurotechms
eurotechms New Reader
8/30/21 1:03 p.m.

The BRZ is a great platform but will never be in the same world as the Z car. For reasons already stated and because current enthusiasts feel its under powered  not turbo etc etc. The Z was loved off the bat and had performance at a cheap price.

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
8/30/21 2:27 p.m.

This will have me a lot more interested once they get the bugs worked out.

https://kpower.industries/blogs/news/the-kpower-86-swap-is-here?mc_cid=eef8413758&mc_eid=9d528127e4

 

350z247
350z247 Reader
8/31/21 10:24 a.m.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Agreed, pretty much every modern 4 cylinder car is made better by a K-swap. I can't wait for the swap kits for the R53 to get ironed out.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/31/21 10:33 a.m.
350z247 said:

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Agreed, pretty much every modern 4 cylinder car is made better by a K-swap. I can't wait for the swap kits for the R53 to get ironed out.

Unfortunately, look at how much goes into making them RWD (and the cost), and look at how many still blow up on track. The complete swap kit for the 86 is almost $10k without the engine. That's a pretty hefty sum and still need to source an engine. And if you want to keep your AC/Heat, the price is $10.5k for the kit.

A used Twin + Kswap, you could just buy a C5 ZO6 and be done with it.

 

For probably a touch more money, you can buy a built FA20 longblock, turbo it, CD009 swap the transmission and have way more reliable power. 

https://www.mazworx.com/mazworx-favq-transmission-adapter-kit-frs/brz.aspx
https://www.maperformance.com/products/map-fa20-built-shortblock-engine-2012-2017-brz-frs-ft-86-fa20-ft86-s2-king-man-man

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/31/21 10:36 a.m.
350z247
350z247 Reader
8/31/21 1:18 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

If I were going to do an engine swap on one (which obviously wouldn't work for the proposed class), I'd buy one with an already dead motor for half the price. The FA20 is an absolute garbage pile of an engine even before you try to add FI; so, I would never put money it one. Engine swaps aren't cheap, but it would certainly be a better car.

Then again, I would never buy a twin because as you mentioned, I can buy all sorts of better options for 15-25K from a 370Z to an E90 M3.

Jerry
Jerry PowerDork
8/31/21 1:20 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

OOf.  (Turbo BRZ much fun, many hoons.)

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/31/21 1:35 p.m.
350z247 said:

In reply to z31maniac :

If I were going to do an engine swap on one (which obviously wouldn't work for the proposed class), I'd buy one with an already dead motor for half the price. The FA20 is an absolute garbage pile of an engine even before you try to add FI; so, I would never put money it one. Engine swaps aren't cheap, but it would certainly be a better car.

Then again, I would never buy a twin because as you mentioned, I can buy all sorts of better options for 15-25K from a 370Z to an E90 M3.

Still $12k+ to swap in another used 4cyl with marginally more power, it makes sense in a 125hp Miata with a swap kit that costs half as much. Not a 2L making 200hp. 

370Z doesn't interest me, I traded in my 350Z after less than 3 months because it was so underwhelming. I talked to my Euro mechanic to long about an E90 M3 and the myriad of problems they have to buy one. Broken valve springs and throttle body motors, rod bearings, etc. Then the fact it's 3700 lbs. 

But this is GRM where we ignore realities like maintenance costs and compare prices on 10-year old used cars to new ones. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/31/21 1:36 p.m.
Jerry said:

In reply to z31maniac :

OOf.  (Turbo BRZ much fun, many hoons.)

I wanted to turbo or S/C with the Harrop Kit my '15 BRZ. But I didn't want to spend that kind of money. 

I had no problem with tail out antics with just a cat-back, E85 tune, running 255/35/18 Star Specs. wink

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
8/31/21 1:44 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I think you're underestimating the power and RPM advantage in even the most mild of N/A builds for K-swaps. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/31/21 2:19 p.m.
accordionfolder said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I think you're underestimating the power and RPM advantage in even the most mild of N/A builds for K-swaps. 

And now we've increased the cost of swap by rebuilding it with cams, etc. I've seen what they are capable of and I've seen how many fresh rebuilds still blow up on the track. From what I've read the Frankenstein K24 block/K20 head makes around 230whp stock. $15k + for 25 more whp doesn't seem like a good return on investment to me.It makes since in an E30 or a Miata that have much lower power to start with and much cheaper swap kits, approx $5k vs $10k+

$15k is LS1/T56 swap territory in a BRZ. Or built longblock, turbo, CD009 making 400whp+.

If that's how people want to spend their money, it's no skin off my back.

It's just my opinion for that kind of money, there are better options. So I've said my peace, I'll leave it alone.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
8/31/21 2:22 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

The swap makes a ton of sense in most of the competitive classes with displacement/cylinder number restrictions (GLTC and TrackRat, Max4, etc) and it makes even more sense when you remember just how lame the boxer in it is (I've never understood the love for a motor that blows up so frequently)

K-series motors are cheap, cheap. And you don't have to do anything crazy or internal to get those power figures (and in most classes you can't). There's a reason everyone swaps them in. 

Though I will agree, if you're just doing a DD it wouldn't make a ton of sense. LS or LFX would be neat for that though.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/31/21 3:32 p.m.

In reply to accordionfolder :

You make a good point about a specific race class. But if it's an occasional HPDE, mostly daily, like for a lot of us...that was the angle I was coming from it not making a lot of sense on a money to HP scale. 

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
8/31/21 3:40 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Yeah, I wonder if anyone will eventually do an LFX, that'd make an interesting daily for relatively cheap if you got a blown motor twin and a copart crashed camaro! ~300whp and great torque with no FI complications would be a lot of fun. I've been passively considering doing the same in an RX-8 for a while now. I think it'd be a great, reliable daily.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
8/31/21 4:40 p.m.

Experienced the 240Z, Miata and now the FRS as new cars when they came out. Called them all out as future classics and expect the FRS to be the same. The classics become classics for what THEY are, not necessarily for how they might compare to  other perceived cars that will probably not become classics. Such are the optics of rose tinted glasses.

 

As far as swapping a different engine into the FRS, you might as well play to the strenghts of the chassis and go with the Ford Coyote engine. LSx if you like plain vanilla.

 

madmrak351
madmrak351 New Reader
1/30/22 8:59 p.m.

I have owned a NA miata and test driven several twins. I have never driven a later series Miata so the 86 type cars feel like I would expect with 2 decades between them. I personally am much more comfortable with the steel roof. The twin chassis felt much better to me. I do feel like it could use/ handle more power. If the used car bubble ever breaks I could definitely see my buying a twin. I could get by with the boxer engine, however if I found one with a blown motor I would definitely look at K swapping it. The place I see this car at is somewhat similar to where the 240sx used to be: an excellent chassis with a motor that is holding it back. That being said I don’t think they will drop to low on the price scale as a good light RWD car will always be in demand.

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