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Definitely gone now
Definitely gone now SuperDork
1/30/22 9:39 p.m.

Nope. The frisbee will never have the sex appeal of a convertible. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
1/30/22 10:29 p.m.

Convertibles are mainly popular because TV shows in the 60s used convertibles as the characters' cars to make it easier to see them on screen, people wanted to be like the TV stars, and the meme stuck.

There, I said it, I feel better.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/31/22 2:53 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Convertibles are mainly popular because TV shows in the 60s used convertibles as the characters' cars to make it easier to see them on screen, people wanted to be like the TV stars, and the meme stuck.

There, I said it, I feel better.

This is literally one of the weirdest "hot takes" I've ever read. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
2/1/22 10:57 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

That is an odd take.

Anyway, a white 86 coupe passed by while walking the dog yesterday. I still had to watch it go by. 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/1/22 11:37 a.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to z31maniac :

That is an odd take.

Anyway, a white 86 coupe passed by while walking the dog yesterday. I still had to watch it go by. 

7 years in April and I still look at mine every time I walk by.

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
2/1/22 11:54 a.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Convertibles are mainly popular because TV shows in the 60s used convertibles as the characters' cars to make it easier to see them on screen, people wanted to be like the TV stars, and the meme stuck.

There, I said it, I feel better.

Nothing far-fetched about it.  This is unquestionably part of the appeal of the convertible.  I mean, even JFK's Presidential Limousine started life as a 1961 Lincoln Continental 4-door convertible.  So, it's easy to understand the popularity.  Oh, wait....

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
2/1/22 12:16 p.m.

In reply to Appleseed :

This one was lowered the right amount and sounded good, too. Dog and I were waiting for the rocket launch, though, and for whatever reason I didn't take a photo of the car. 

350z247
350z247 Reader
2/1/22 10:14 p.m.

In reply to Definitely gone now :

Yes, Miata and sex appeal. Two things I have never once associated...

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
2/1/22 10:20 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Convertibles are mainly popular because TV shows in the 60s used convertibles as the characters' cars to make it easier to see them on screen, people wanted to be like the TV stars, and the meme stuck.

There, I said it, I feel better.

This is literally one of the weirdest "hot takes" I've ever read. 

It's defensible, though. There's logic behind it. I've also read that one of the reasons blondes became viewed as sexier than brunettes is because of how their hair showed up on earlier movie screens. There's really no functional reason why a convertible is superior, they're worse for sports cars ever since we discovered aerodynamics. But they do engage you more with what's going on.

Every one of my own Miatas has a hard top and two of them don't even have soft tops under there...

And Miatas can have sex appeal. Maybe not to everyone but an RF is arguably sexier than a lot of vehicles.

parker
parker Reader
2/2/22 10:47 a.m.

The RF is a damn fine looking automobile.  Unlike the overstyled mess of the Civic Type R and Supra.  Actually, Mazda's whole lineup is handsome.

 

Jerry
Jerry PowerDork
2/2/22 9:09 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to z31maniac :

That is an odd take.

Anyway, a white 86 coupe passed by while walking the dog yesterday. I still had to watch it go by. 

I miss warm weather. Every morning at the first stop sign on my street about 4-5 young boys wait for the school bus, and every time I drive the BRZ they run over to the corner and start waving and pumping their fists waiting for a burn out.

I usually rev it up a little and chirp the tires for a few feet. I remember being those kids.

Tim Suddard
Tim Suddard Publisher
2/3/22 9:17 a.m.

I wonder if enough were built to someday capture the throne.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
2/3/22 10:22 a.m.

In reply to Tim Suddard :

Didn't they build something like over a million Miatas so far? I don't think they built that many 1st gen 86s or anywhere close to that number. Fortunately they did build enough of them to support a pretty thriving aftermarket.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
2/3/22 10:28 a.m.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

They crossed a million a couple of years ago. Number 500,000 was a 1999 model, so nearly half of all Miatas built are NAs.

The aftermarket for BRZs is way out of scale for the production numbers. That thing hit a rich demographic seam for modification. It'll be interesting to see if it holds up over time as the cars transition from "modify for performance" to "repair and restore". 

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim MegaDork
2/3/22 10:42 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Maybe I'm a little paranoid from seeing some other cars' aftermarket slowly disappear, but I suspect the 86 aftermarket - at least for parts that only fit the first series - probably isn't that sustainable. Part of it seems to be that the aftermarket is ripe with knock-off parts, and part of it is that a lot of the discussion about modifications I've seen lately were definitely focused on price.

Like the "I want stupidly loud and low" leading to the cheapest straight pipe and maxpeedingrod competitor's coilovers that one could find on fleabay.

Either that or I need to hang out with a better class of 86 owners .

Regarding the restore vs modify - while I like mine (I just resent the money I'm currently dumping into it to get it working again), I don't think they're that great stock. They really can be improved with proper modifications, and my impression is that this was the intent - build them more down to a price, and if someone wants fully adjustable rear suspension and Öhlins coilovers, the aftermarket will sort it out.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
2/3/22 12:41 p.m.

All cars have to traverse the valley of depreciation before ascending into the sunny hillsides of value. The cheap coilover phase is an unfortunate one but impossible to avoid with a car of this type. Once a large number are destroyed by drifter stancebros who willfully damage things for lols, the remainder will be worth spending money on and the aftermarket will respond.  
 

Hopefully. Not all cars survive the valley. Some just get used up and don't have enough innate value to be preserved. My first gen CRX is a bit like that, only a very few examples are worth anything and the aftermarket is almost nonexistent. That's because the second gen basically defined an era and the first gen went from "cheap but with potential" to just "cheap". 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/3/22 12:50 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

This is why I was stressing to buy a FoRS as soon as I could find clean stock examples in the $25k range, as I wanted to buy before they got wrecked through modification or bad driving.

 

Fortunately their values skyrocketed right about the time I was seeing 2016s for $27k-ish, so I am safe.  For now.  As long as RS3 prices don't crater.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
2/3/22 12:51 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Hopefully. Not all cars survive the valley. Some just get used up and don't have enough innate value to be preserved. My first gen CRX is a bit like that, only a very few examples are worth anything and the aftermarket is almost nonexistent. That's because the second gen basically defined an era and the first gen went from "cheap but with potential" to just "cheap". 

Yeah, there's a delicate balance between availability, price, and average owner disposable income level needed to maintain a healthy aftermarket of parts.  FDs and E46 M3s had similar prices when new and fall into a similar range of used prices now, but the vastly smaller number of FDs (both production and especially survivability) means there are 10-20x as many options for any given part on the BMW.

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
2/3/22 12:55 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

It also helps that there were "base" models of E46 that the M3 might share some parts with.  The Turbo II also had the nonturbo FC that shared a lot of parts.  The FD had... other FDs.

I've long opined that Mazda should have made a nonturbo FD.  I had been derided for it because a lot of FD people liked the exclusivity more than they liked the actual car.  I was looking forward, to a time when you could no longer just buy new parts for them and used was your only option.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/3/22 3:42 p.m.
BoxheadTim said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Maybe I'm a little paranoid from seeing some other cars' aftermarket slowly disappear, but I suspect the 86 aftermarket - at least for parts that only fit the first series - probably isn't that sustainable. Part of it seems to be that the aftermarket is ripe with knock-off parts, and part of it is that a lot of the discussion about modifications I've seen lately were definitely focused on price.

Like the "I want stupidly loud and low" leading to the cheapest straight pipe and maxpeedingrod competitor's coilovers that one could find on fleabay.

Either that or I need to hang out with a better class of 86 owners .

Regarding the restore vs modify - while I like mine (I just resent the money I'm currently dumping into it to get it working again), I don't think they're that great stock. They really can be improved with proper modifications, and my impression is that this was the intent - build them more down to a price, and if someone wants fully adjustable rear suspension and Öhlins coilovers, the aftermarket will sort it out.

Outside of cosmetics, most of the previous BBKs and suspension setups fit, Headers and exhaust fit (if you do a catback not a header back).

Certain BBKs will not fit the Gen 2 BRZ because the way the aluminum knuckle is cast for strength, but AP Racing is already working on a new bracket. And one of them has a different rear sway bar setup on the 2nd gen, but a lot of the other suspension/performance stuff all bolts over. 

In December, there were already guys with full exhausts, coilovers, BBKs, and larger/wider wheels and tires. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
2/3/22 4:40 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

It also helps that there were "base" models of E46 that the M3 might share some parts with.

There are surprisingly few performance-related parts that are common between the M3 and the "normal" 3 series, at least in the E46 generation.  Obviously the drivetrain is completely different, but so are things like suspension uprights, hubs, control arms, etc.  Even the mounting points for a lot of that stuff is different, so things like big brake kits come in M3 and non-M3 versions, even if they're using the same aftermarket rotors and calipers.

 

Furious_E (Forum Supporter)
Furious_E (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
2/3/22 4:40 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I have a feeling the attrition rate is going to be high on these as time moves on. They were cheap enough new that many ended up with crappy first/second owners, lots of poorly modded and R-title examples out there already. As an example, literally the week after I bought my FRS we had a 20ish year old kid start at work with a twin of my Twin, bought brand new and festooned with the requisite eBay coilovers, straight piped exhaust, coffee table sized wing, ect. I witnessed multiple neutral drops out of the parking lot (yes, it was an autotragic frown) and other similar behavior. As they continue to slide down the depreciation curve, I don't see that trend improving, especially once they hit the point of being financially viable for the Dorifto crowd. 

On the positive side, as Z31 mentions a lot seems to carry over to the gen 2 cars as far as common aftermarket parts are concerned, which should help sustain the size of the market. I also think just by virtue of being an affordable RWD performance platform they'll sustain the interest of the enthusiast market. I just don't think they have the raw numbers to survive and thrive quite like the Miata has. Total production looks to be just over 120k so far, less than half the Nissan 240sx for comparison and how many of those do you see in salvageable condition these days?

dannyp84
dannyp84 Reader
2/3/22 6:28 p.m.

In reply to Furious_E (Forum Supporter) :

You've got a point, though I'm still amazed at how often clean unmodified S13s come out of the woodwork and show up on Instagram. Hopefully the 86/BRZ appeals to people who were maybe cross shopping a Cayman but would like to keep some money in their pockets, and they'll keep the cars in good condition. The other day I looked for a Hakone edition 86 and there were only 2 for sale within 1500 miles, which is a shame because the paint color is lovely.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/3/22 6:54 p.m.

In reply to dannyp84 :

Based on my experience on the Facebook groups and forums the last 7+ years, it's almost all as mentioned. Kids who are too lazy to search or learn, using their new credit cards to buy eBay/rep parts and knock off body kits to try and like on Instagram.

I can't tell you how many videos I've seen of these "car gatherings" where there are literally hundreds of people standing around watching to see if a car that's slammed to the ground can make it over a speed bump or into a parking lot. 

A lot of it is treated more like fashion now. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
2/3/22 6:58 p.m.
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