Counsel me on the Audi 4000CS quattro

Still looking for a winter car to replace my Eclipse. My medula badidea is still fighting the part of my brain that wants to say, "berkeley it, I'll just buy a SUV." Here is the latest car to spark the not-very-bright neurons:

http://boston.craigslist.org/nos/cto/3939441196.html

Sooo... how tough is it to replace the cylinder head on the old 5-cylinder Audis? How about just the valve cover gasket? It looks like the rust spots on the body were professionally fixed already and there are a lot of rare/desirable parts already installed. If I should run, not walk, would it be towards or away from the Audi 4000?

Sounds like an awfully fair deal. Mileage means nothing to those cars. The valve cover gasket is super simple to do (makes me wonder why he hasn't done it). The head isn't terrible. Worst part is busting the crank pulley nut loose (I think it has to come off to replace the timing belt); it's on with 45 million ft-lbs of torque.

They drive nice but only what I'd call 'adequate' power. Getting more power is an expensive and frustrating path unless you just bolt a 5000 turbo engine in it. The drivetrain is certainly up to it--way overbuilt. Audi is terrible for supplying parts for old cars so things like sunroof seals and trim bits are going to be used only. And the little fake fog lights in the bumper are made of unobtainium.

Great cars, pretty old by now but capable of 300,000 miles of good service and typically not expensive to fix (unlike much of their newer bretheren).

Funny how when I mentioned trading my cressida for this exact car (seller is a close friend of mine) that I was told not to do the trade.

I love those cars.

In reply to Mazdax605:

This thing is cool, but not as cool as the Cressida. Plus it sounds like it needs more work than the Cressy.

Maybe so but at least I know what the audi needs. I can't figure out what is wrong with the cressida. Also I was getting my pick of a low mileage 91 Rx7 convertible or a starquest as well. This place is weird.

As long as I don't have to pull the motor then I can knock out the valve cover gasket in less than a weekend.

The throw-out bearing does concern me. I never got around to replacing the clutch and throw-out bearing on the Eclipse but then again it was too rusty to save. I would need help with that, methinks.

I don't need a winter car right away nor would I need it on the road right off the bat, but I don't want to put off a purchase till it's almost too late (like I did with the Eclipse).

Mazdax605 wrote: Maybe so but at least I know what the audi needs. I can't figure out what is wrong with the cressida. Also I was getting my pick of a low mileage 91 Rx7 convertible or a starquest as well. This place is weird.

Sometimes Boston and New Hampshire craigslist can be a treasure trove of GRM approved weirdness / goodness. It comes in waves. Recently I've found a Fiat X1/9, a Renault Caravelle, a Datsun 620 pickup (all three Challenge priced), and an AE86 coupe (not Challenge priced but only 33k on the odometer!). So far the Audi is the only one I've come across that isn't useless on the snow nor will it rust into oblivion after one winter like the old I- F- and J-tin.

In reply to Mazdax605:

You are just now figuring that out?

There is a running 90 quattro 20v in my town for which the owner is asking $2500.

I am desperately trying to talk myself out of looking at it.

And there are bunches of clean Cressidas down here...

Mazdax605 wrote: Funny how when I mentioned trading my cressida for this exact car (seller is a close friend of mine) that I was told not to do the trade.

You were getting rid of a very cool car to buy another cool car.

If you had asked, "Hey, I have this Cressida and I am thinking about picking up an Audi an RX-7 and a Starion. None of them work, I don't have any room. Is this a bad idea?"

Then everybody would have said, "No, that is a great idea. Do it" or perhaps "Terrible idea, can you supply the phone number of the seller, please?"

They handle like garbage but they have the second beefiest AWD drivetrain ever made, so you can overcome the handling deficiency with more power.

The price seems high. I know of one in Detroit with a clean body, it needs a clutch however. The last price that I remember for it was $1200.

they are the best car I have ever driven in the winter by far, the old audi's were build like tanks compared to the new ones, and the one you are looking at is the cream of the 4000 crop (87 CS) I may be biased because that car is practically identical to mine but I think it will make a much better winter car than anything else mentioned in this thread. the price seems a little high but it also comes with a lot of goodies, both installed and in boxes, plus given your location they are getting rather hard to find out there. . . I say do it, you wont be let down by this car.

also, here is a link to my build thread if you want an 8 page nudge in the right direction filled with 4000 awesomeness

'87 4000 CS quattro

Knurled wrote: They handle like garbage

Compared to what? My Coupe GT (same thing sans rear driveshaft, etc) was a joy to drive. A set of H&R's and it's pretty much fixed.

The steering and front end geometry is just all wrong. That and the 500-odd pound hunk of iron and aluminum wedged between the trans and front bumper, and the very heavy (yet strong!) partially iron-cased transaxle mounted right behind it, certainly do not help any.

CGTs have the advantage of having a beam rear axle, which helps liven things up a bit. 4000qs have.. the front suspension in the back.

I haven't driven 4000qs as much as I have my Quantum Syncro which has a better rear suspension (heck, I don't think I've driven ANY car as much as I've driven the QSW) but the trick seems to be to lock the diffs for predictability, and then drive it like a rear-driver - keep the tail behind the thrust vector so that you never need more than a quarter lock of steering. Any more than that and you just understeer to a terrible degree. Unlocking the diffs helps, but then you're driving an AWD with three open diffs and you're never quite sure what will happen when you try to play weight-transfer games mid corner.

RexSeven wrote: The throw-out bearing does concern me. I never got around to replacing the clutch and throw-out bearing on the Eclipse but then again it was too rusty to save. I would need help with that, methinks.

I dunno, these guys seem to bang through a transmission swap in an Audi quattro pretty quickly.

A friend of mine had a 5000CS that we eventually junked because the wiring harness melted (still not sure as to the original reason, suspect bad mods). CIS-E is pretty complicated and had hard to source ($$$) components, so you'll have to actually learn the system instead of just throwing parts at it to fix any fuel injection issues. It was FWD and (3-speed) automatic so it just wasn't special enough to justify the work to get it back on the road in the end.

The bodies are lovely - can't believe how well the galvanizing and sheet metal holds up to salty winter driving. There are very few cars going on 30 years old that look this nice in northern areas.

I'd definitely own one if the opportunity presented itself. The open centre diff is a somewhat unpleasant surprise if you're coming at it from a Subaru or Mitsubishi.

2K4Kcsq wrote: they are the best car I have ever driven in the winter by far, the old audi's were build like tanks compared to the new ones, and the one you are looking at is the cream of the 4000 crop (87 CS) I may be biased because that car is practically identical to mine but I think it will make a much better winter car than anything else mentioned in this thread. the price seems a little high but it also comes with a lot of goodies, both installed and in boxes, plus given your location they are getting rather hard to find out there. . . I say do it, you wont be let down by this car. also, here is a link to my build thread if you want an 8 page nudge in the right direction filled with 4000 awesomeness '87 4000 CS quattro

This thread will make you want one.

ssswitch wrote: I dunno, these guys seem to bang through a transmission swap in an Audi quattro pretty quickly.

You can't really compare rally stuff to street stuff.

For example, the rally cars had the top of the transmission's bellhousing cut off so that you didn't need to remove the steering linkage to pull the trans. And they had the subframe lowered two inches, supposedly for suspension travel reasons but it also gives the advantage that you can access the lower bellhousing bolts without jacking the engine or lowering the subframe...

Also, from what everyone's told me, 4000s were never galvanized, the small-chassis cars didn't get galvanizing until the B3 chassis in '88.

Not true. My CGT was galvanized. Porsche went to galvanizing in the 1970s and I suspect the same is true for the other VAG products. These cars can, of course, rust but I haven't seen very many with serious issues. I think they hold up better in this regard than a 3 series BMW of the same vintage.

you suspect. . . but it's just not true. My '87 4k CS is not galvanized. If it was I would have known it when I started cutting and welding in the flares. they were painted very well but no galvanizing. Knurled is right. I cant speak for the fwd B2's but the small body 4dr was not until the B3 came out

So what did you think, Johnathan? I know you went to see this car today. The seller is a great guy, and a real car geek, eh?