nimblemotorsports said:barefootskater said:nimblemotorsports said:There is no EV conversion that has acceptable range and performance for $5k.
And you can't run consistent 10s for less than $2k
If you have to ask how to do it, you can't do it.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
"I cant do it! so nobody else can >:( !"
Back to the topic of cheap EV speed.
Individual leaf batteries can go for $50-75 depending on mwh capacity and how the car was treated, so you can cobble multiple wrecked leafs into a single one- you just don't see them used in tons of projects because their individual pack voltage is low compared to other automotive packs, as they are meant to be combined into arrays. You CAN get around that if your controller takes more voltage and you keep temps in check, but since leaf cells were made to be air-cooled that presents a challenge.
As for a motor, brushless D/C have been used for decades in everything from pumps to forklifts and can be controlled in thousands of ways, some now using Raspberry Pi all the way to wild-ass field weakening based solutions (the kind eBike owners do to wring 40HP in short bursts from 10lb Chinese Brushless DC motors, though it takes an awesome amount of experimentation and time) so unless you get the leaf motor as a package deal on the cheap that would likely be your best solution. A cheap controller means you loose out on regen, but for a challenge car you're range is gonna be short anyway so that will be a loss only when it comes to braking and keeping related temps down.
I think it could be done. It would undboutedly take a huge amount of time and luck- and I think a near rat-rod/hot-rod level of building and designing- but I think it could be done. Perhaps you could get lucky and Jehu Garcia the battery together from used cells from people's computers and electronic crap?
To be clear, I am not going to try to do this on challenge budget, though I think it's a valid idea and I fully endorse anyone who wants to try.
This car is a long term project and I'm just starting to weigh out options. EVs are very interesting to me and I think in the next few years they'll be quite common in motorsports all over.
The other side is for these little air cooled motors power usually comes at the cost of longevity and while a stockish build is incredibly cheap, making real power gets expensive fast. That's why you see so many Subaru implants. Rather than deal with making a too-big engine fit, and installing a cooling system in a car that never had one... well, this is where my mind went. And I see enough upsides that some extra cost would be well worth it. I'm going to do some homework.
Also. Someone needs to do a challenge EV. I'm not a rich man but I'll pay the entry fee for the first team to make it happen.
Here is a VW bug, DIY EV conversion, for sale at $10k, he says cost him $28k, which isn't too out of line.
If you've built 3 EVs like I have and watched dozens of people build them, you learn something.
A built a charger that played the Top Gear theme song on the transformer while it charged....... lol
https://sacramento.craigslist.org/cto/d/newcastle-1966-electric-vw-bug/7004247050.html
Copart fiat 500e will take this all day. California only but that's your budget build. They're Abarth-quick stock - traction and weight is where the build comes in
Aw heck, the 500e has been in more places than just California- there was a couple in Omaha a little while ago at the Carmax for real cheap that I was looking at to replace my daily.
There's also another homologation special for a source of batteries- the Ford Fusion EV. Pretty rare and difficult to find, but Endless Sphere fans report than handful they've seen have had a cheap source of lithium.
In reply to nimblemotorsports :
Now you're talking! Yeah, doubt that you'll be able to make anything like that on a challenge budget, but isn't that an extremely high bar to reach? We're talking about a breed of vehicle that has only been a viable replacement for gas for the last ~10 years (20 if you want to count the EV-1 and it's very limited sale)- heck, the only way I could see one being made for 2 grand would be though free salvaged batteries and a brushless DC motor from a forklift unless someone just GAVE you something like a leaf to bash into something new.
But i'm about what could be done, not what can't yet- and the idea of a rat rod/classic roadster that's an all-EV vehicle makes me excited.
you can get 500e's with like 12k miles for like $5k in atlanta
I like the 500e thought. Only slightly terrified of cramming that many Italian electrons in my car. I forgot about them entirely until now
Or take the gas motor out of the volt.
The volt has 2 electric motors and all the batteries to go 35-40 miles on a charge. The main electric motor is more powerful than the motor on the leaf.
Also, I don't know a ton about it, but it looks to me like the main motor on the volt is integrated to the transmission, basically it looks like the transmission is between the gas and electric motor and there is a shared input shaft.
FYI all I watched some leafs on copart. First auction I was able to catch was today. 2013 leaf with pretty significant body damage front and side. Went for 2950 before fees.
Honestly I was surprised by that price, especially when you can get non damaged ones for only $2-3k more.
Yeah looks like salvage Leaf still has value, but here;s a buy it now one for $2800:
I bet you could buy that, and sell off $2800 worth of stuff and still have a usable motor and batteries. That might not make them free for Challenge budget reasons, but maybe as cheap as you can get?
Robbie said:FYI all I watched some leafs on copart. First auction I was able to catch was today. 2013 leaf with pretty significant body damage front and side. Went for 2950 before fees.
Honestly I was surprised by that price, especially when you can get non damaged ones for only $2-3k more.
Either way is very promising. I bet with patience most of the rest of the parts could be sold off for a near complete recoup and even if one needed a completely new battery pack it would still be pretty reasonable. Curious what the whole powertrain weighs... Motor cant be too heavy (compared to even an ACVW ICE)... the possibilities are very exciting.
barefootskater said:Curious what the whole powertrain weighs... Motor cant be too heavy (compared to even an ACVW ICE)... the possibilities are very exciting.
https://www.marklines.com/en/report_all/rep1049_201202
that's part 1 of 3... but I think it has most of the weights...
294kg for the battery (a 2011 battery, supposedly there were some reduction in pack weight)
part 2:
https://www.marklines.com/en/report_all/rep1104_201209
has the a/c motor at 58kg, and the inverter at ~17kg
i think that's all the components with weights listed
edit:
also, I had the thought this weekend, after looking at an edmunds suspension walkaround of the Leaf... that the torsion-beam rear suspension might lend itself nicely to the "suspension mounted rear wing" concept the AMC ran this year
In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :
Yes, torsion beam mounted aero sounds good to me!
I watched a YouTube video last night that disassembled a leaf motor and weighed the components.
Iirc, 180lbs for motor/trans. 40ish for controller, 60ish for charger.
I have a friend who built one from scratch. He bought lithium batteries from China and a used controllerand a motor from somewhere and mounted it all in a Ford fiesta. It had enough range to commute with and run some errands so around 100 miles. He had to do the round trip because his job would not let him plug in in case he caused a fire. I recall him saying he was into it for around 8000 canadian. Eventually his controller fried and he pulled the bits out and junked the Fiesta.
dculberson said:Yeah looks like salvage Leaf still has value, but here;s a buy it now one for $2800:
I bet you could buy that, and sell off $2800 worth of stuff and still have a usable motor and batteries. That might not make them free for Challenge budget reasons, but maybe as cheap as you can get?
What people are missing about a Challenge budget EV is that is doesn't need any range. It just has to do 60 second autocrosses, and 1/4 mile passes.
That battery is built in modules. If only 1/2 of the modules needed to be on the car to accomplish the Challenge event, then only 1/2 of the cost of the battery would have to be in the budget.
In reply to SVreX :
The expense in an EV is the batteries, and you are right, for autocross and drag racing, you don't need a really big pack, so can be much cheaper.
But then you need a truck and trailer to get it there and back. lol
The Fiat 500e looks promising! they look to have a good pack, better than a Leaf, and while they are not common at all, if you can score a cheap one,
it would be a good source for a cheap good sized pack.
SVreX said:dculberson said:Yeah looks like salvage Leaf still has value, but here;s a buy it now one for $2800:
I bet you could buy that, and sell off $2800 worth of stuff and still have a usable motor and batteries. That might not make them free for Challenge budget reasons, but maybe as cheap as you can get?
What people are missing about a Challenge budget EV is that is doesn't need any range. It just has to do 60 second autocrosses, and 1/4 mile passes.
That battery is built in modules. If only 1/2 of the modules needed to be on the car to accomplish the Challenge event, then only 1/2 of the cost of the battery would have to be in the budget.
Sorta. You are limited by the amph and volts of the individual cells when making your challenge battery.
But yeah you could probably use a leaf to make 2 or 3 challenge batteries.
In reply to nimblemotorsports :
There WILL be an EV at the Challenge soon.
There will likely never be an EV at the Challenge which can also be street driven to and from the track.
In reply to Robbie :
Yeah, you'd have to do some research of what the maximum "C" rate the cells can handle... so long as you can still pull the required amps to get to {insert power number} instantaneous.
you could also maybe pull the charger off-board for budget/weight savings
edit:
also, I reckon flat-towing an EV challenge car will be relatively easier compared to some of the other ones?
sleepyhead the buffalo said:In reply to Robbie :
Yeah, you'd have to do some research of what the maximum "C" rate the cells can handle... so long as you can still pull the required amps to get to {insert power number} instantaneous.
you could also maybe pull the charger off-board for budget/weight savings
edit:
also, I reckon flat-towing an EV challenge car will be relatively easier compared to some of the other ones?
Yes, and if you're smart give it the ability to Regen while you tow for topping off the battery anywhere.
In reply to MrChaos :
You have my attention. Any examples?
SVreX said:In reply to nimblemotorsports :
There WILL be an EV at the Challenge soon.
Why do you think I'm watching leafs on copart?
In reply to Robbie :
You could, but regen will easily double the cost of the controller and limit motor choices to Brushless DC or AC only (which you're gonna use, but is worth noting). Which, if we're talking challenge here, you'd only *need* for an edge in the autocross as a second brake.
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