DIY vs Shop - clutch, ring gears?

Hey all,

My buddy and I grabbed a cheap-o 2000 Mustang GT convertible this weekend (in yellow, natch). It's in need of a new clutch (and flywheel "while you're in there"), and it has the stock tall gearing so we are going to swap to a 3.73 or 4.10 ratio.

I'm pushing to do the work ourselves. We don't have a lift, but we do have a garage and winter is approaching so it's not exactly convertible season.

My buddy wants to farm out the work. I'm curious if anyone has any idea as to how much labor for this sort of job would run? I'm worried it will be a lot for what should be pretty simple!

Thanks!

I'd want to do the ring and pinion myself because it is easily berkeleyupable by someone who doesn't care.

OTOH I also am the guy people take things to when they want to make sure it gets done right.  So I am biased.

But really, it's not hard, just tedious, and some people don't care for getting tedious things done "right" so much as that they get out the door.  You will need to buy some meauring tools, and have access to a press, but tools are not that expensive and you get to keep them after the job is done.

I've done both on my old RX7 (sort of). I swapped in a Miata Torsen into the RX7 case, so moved the ring gear over, but didn't end up touching the pinion. If you have some paint to mark the gears, a dial gauge on a magnetic base, a helper and an eye for detail you can do it. Clutches are much less technical.

Thanks both. I wasn't aware that the gears were so finicky...otoh, I'm not sure where to find a press!

I'd consider doing the clutch and flywheel. It's mainly following good garage practices: torque the pressure plate gradually in a cross cross pattern, avoid contamination of the disc and surfaces, and don't force it during reassembly (if its binding then something's not right).

The diff is something I would send out. It's requires more tools to measure than your average home mechanic will have, and is more likely to cause you headaches. Just make sure you get a reputable shop so it's done right. 

No Time said:

I'd consider doing the clutch and flywheel. It's mainly following good garage practices: torque the pressure plate gradually in a cross cross pattern, avoid contamination of the disc and surfaces, and don't force it during reassembly (if its binding then something's not right).

The diff is something I would send out. It's requires more tools to measure than your average home mechanic will have, and is more likely to cause you headaches. Just make sure you get a reputable shop so it's done right. 

IMHO, this is the correct answer. I "practiced" replacing a clutch on my 98 Cabrio. Finding success, I did the clutch on my B5A4 quattro. I took my time, everything has worked well since, and no fasteners left over. If you were set on doing the diff, I'd yank the old one and "practice" on it first. 

Free advice is worth what you paid. Good luck!

FWIW, if you buy Ford Motorsport gears, you probably WON'T have to set them up.  Slap them in with the old shims and most likely the pattern and backlash are correct.

I set up gears with a $30 Harbor Freight dial indicator kit.  Not hard, just tedious.  If you're concerned about the outcome, you'll be fine.

In reply to Knurled. :

It's so friggin nice when that happens.

I usually just swap the whole pumpkin instead of gears, but almost everything I own has IRS.

This is super useful all, thanks for the free advice!

Dave M said:

Hey all,

My buddy and I grabbed a cheap-o 2000 Mustang GT convertible this weekend (in yellow, natch). It's in need of a new clutch (and flywheel "while you're in there"), and it has the stock tall gearing so we are going to swap to a 3.73 or 4.10 ratio.

I'm pushing to do the work ourselves. We don't have a lift, but we do have a garage and winter is approaching so it's not exactly convertible season.

My buddy wants to farm out the work. I'm curious if anyone has any idea as to how much labor for this sort of job would run? I'm worried it will be a lot for what should be pretty simple!

Thanks!

 

Doing axle gears does require some careful measuring (and a lot of patience).  I've been through it a couple of times, and FWIW both times I also swapped out the differential as well.  I'm currently in the middle of doing this job again, for the 8.8" axle in my '08 GT, going from Traction-lok and 3.55's to a Torsen and 3.73's.

It's even possible to do this job without a press, though a bit more physical effort is required.

Norm

I am surprised no one came up with "find a used diff with the correct gears and swap the whole axle".  Which also then gives you a spare axle to set up later.

In reply to noddaz :

I don't think Ford offered 3.73 or 4.10 in that generation Mustang, even in the V6 models.

Funnily enough, I did most gear swaps in V6 Mustangs. 3.73 was a popular upgrade.

Almost every Mustang needs a gear swap.   First off i'd price out the tools you need to do the diff and ask yourself whether you're ever going to use them again. Those two factors will give you something to compare to the turn-key price of having someone else do it. 

And i would absolutely do the clutch. The only generic advice I have for dropping RWD transmissions is buy wobble sockets and long (like 2-3f) extensions. One 3ft extension is usually fine but its good to have enough shorter ones to piece together something in the middle (1-2ft) when you need to. 

Vigo said:

Almost every Mustang needs a gear swap.   First off i'd price out the tools you need to do the diff and ask yourself whether you're ever going to use them again. Those two factors will give you something to compare to the turn-key price of having someone else do it. 

 

And i would absolutely do the clutch. The only generic advice I have for dropping RWD transmissions is buy wobble sockets and long (like 2-3f) extensions. One 3ft extension is usually fine but its good to have enough shorter ones to piece together something in the middle (1-2ft) when you need to. 

Thanks! My buddy has his father-in-law's old tool collection so we're stocked with sockets and extensions! I'm going to try and convince him to do the clutch with me instead of paying his mechanic friend.

The idea of just swapping the rear end is appealing, thanks!

New question: steering rack seals are leaking. Would you guys DIY a new rack (or new used rack) or pay the man to put it in? I'm leery of anything involving high pressure hoses.

I have done a lot of both jobs (well... a few ring gears).

It's not hard at all.  I would (in my current, single-garage situation) farm out the clutch before I farm out the ring gear.  The clutch is something any shop can do, so pricing would be more competitive.  Ring gears are a bit more specialized and can be costly and easy to mess up.  I'm also much more likely to sit cross-legged under a rear axle in my driveway than I am trying to drop a 200-lb transmission laying on my back with a floor jack.

T56, or auto?  Do the math before you chose a ratio.  The auto 4R70W has a 2.85/.70 ratio spread.  The T56 has a 2.66/.50 spread.  Doesn't seem huge, but it is.  For instance, if the 4R70W is backed with 3.23 gears, the T56 would need 4.10s to keep the same basic spread and it will STILL have lower highway RPMs.

In my case, I wanted to go from a GM 4L60E to a T56.  The 4L60E was backed with 3.08s, and in order to keep the same basic ratio spread, my choices were between 4.10 and 4.56.  The double OD and steeper first gear on the T56 is a whopper difference.

Those mustangs are some of the easiest vehicles to do a rack and pinion on. I would do that myself too. 

In reply to Curtis :

T45 I believe? We're going to the next-highest ratio I think (3.73).

I hear you about the clutch being something that could use a lift!

In reply to Vigo :

Thanks!

Knurled. said:

I'd want to do the ring and pinion myself because it is easily berkeleyupable by someone who doesn't care.

 

OTOH I also am the guy people take things to when they want to make sure it gets done right.  So I am biased.

 

But really, it's not hard, just tedious, and some people don't care for getting tedious things done "right" so much as that they get out the door.  You will need to buy some meauring tools, and have access to a press, but tools are not that expensive and you get to keep them after the job is done.

You're right. Do the rear end yourself Easy enough to do yourself with a few pieces to measure with. You'll use them for other things too eventually if you build engines etc. 

You have the right idea. Focus on doing it right and be willing to stop and think things through.  Speed doesn't count.  Do it right, not " good enough or close" 

Dave M said:

In reply to Curtis :

T45 I believe? We're going to the next-highest ratio I think (3.73).

I hear you about the clutch being something that could use a lift!

Ah yes.  3.73 should be a good match.

frenchyd said:

Knurled. said:

I'd want to do the ring and pinion myself because it is easily berkeleyupable by someone who doesn't care.

 

OTOH I also am the guy people take things to when they want to make sure it gets done right.  So I am biased.

 

But really, it's not hard, just tedious, and some people don't care for getting tedious things done "right" so much as that they get out the door.  You will need to buy some meauring tools, and have access to a press, but tools are not that expensive and you get to keep them after the job is done.

You're right. Do the rear end yourself Easy enough to do yourself with a few pieces to measure with. You'll use them for other things too eventually if you build engines etc. 

You have the right idea. Focus on doing it right and be willing to stop and think things through.  Speed doesn't count.  Do it right, not " good enough or close" 

Yup.  Watch a few youtube videos on the R&P and you'll be fine.  Just remember to use the thick shims on the thrust side (the bolt side) of the ring.  My first one I thought "a shim is a shim" and 300 very whiny miles later I corrected the issue.

The pinion is mostly a no-brainer in those.  Pinion depth should always be checked, but pinions are machined to a pretty close tolerance, so keeping the shims in the same place should get you darn close (if not spot on) for your housing.  If you want, buy a solid bushing instead of a crush sleeve.  It can get tedious, but at least the constant on/off of the pinion nut won't destroy the crush sleeve.

Then just set backlash and check the pattern.  Always check the pattern by turning the pinion, not the ring.  I've only done a handful so I'm no master, but my first 4.10 swap now has 114k on it and it's doing great.

In reply to Curtis :

Thank you sir! Have you ever taught a class? Because that is really helpful stuff.

No Time said:

The diff is something I would send out. It's requires more tools to measure than your average home mechanic will have, and is more likely to cause you headaches. Just make sure you get a reputable shop so it's done right. 

The advice I've always gotten is that the best place for setting up R&Ps is the 4x4 shop because they do a lot of them.

Dave M said:

In reply to Curtis :

Thank you sir! Have you ever taught a class? Because that is really helpful stuff.

I've taught many classes, but never on R&Ps.  I'm still at the point where I'm one step more experienced than you are :)

I have taught classes on theater set building, volumetric efficiency and engine dynamics, and entry level mechanics.  I also taught an acting class... so maybe I'm just ACTING like I know what I'm talking about :)