Driving fast, hand techniques and cleaning up your lines

This past weekend I did another rallycross in my stock class Subaru,  I was 4th out of 14 overall.  My driving is okay to good at times but never awesome.  
 

I had our best driver (Mr. FTD) drive my car two runs.  Net result, my car is capable of 2nd overall behind his Mod FWD Civic with full mods plus aero.  I could beat the two drivers ahead of me with better hand work (steering) and tightening my line.  In the fast sections, I am probably carrying too much speed making my line wide (but drifting a Subie on dirt is big fun).  
 

My car has a 16.5:1 granny steering rack but Mr FTDs handwork was still way better.  Any hints or tips on cleaning up handiwork on the steering inputs?  Any hand to hand crossover tips?  Even when I modify for prepared class, my STI rack is only 14.5:1.  
 

Also what are the best ways to clean up lines on dirt?  I probably know how to do this it's more a matter of discipline.  Being always 1 or 2 in class (do to not many S4 cars Olay this site) definitely has made me focus less on this.  
 

Now that I know the car can go even faster, I'm more motivated.  I'm going to have Mr FTD drive ride with me more.  
 

I may also take a 1 yr anny of rallycross trip back to Austin where S4 has more competition.  I can see my improvement better there.

On a car with slow steering I shuffle steer on dirt. I don't like hand over hand as it's easier to get caught out.

As for your lines: Stop revelling in the big slides (it is fun but scrubs speed) once the car has rotated it should be moving forward, if not you're wasting time. It's OK if the back is still rotating as long as the car is still moving forward.  You also need to strike a balance between the tightest line/shortest distance and maintaining a high average corner speed. 

Well after more research one of the faster guys has won nationals at autoX and does a lot of WRL endurance racing.  The other two have a lot more runs on dirt than I do and more wheel time on pavement too.  I guess since it's my first season of rallycross I'm doing pretty good.  I just want to get better and know I can,  

I need to stop the hands crossing over though.  I also need to clean up my lines.  
 

Checking results I've moved from mid pack to upper 1/3 or 1/4 in one season.  That's not too shabby.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Yes absolutely ditch the hand crossing.

And yes not to shabby.

Seems like some video would help, hard to give specific advice otherwise.

I've pretty much only driven rwd but my experience is that your hands are basically just trying to keep up with what's happening... don't want to get crossed up or end up with them right next to each other, but other than that getting the wheel to where it needs to be when it needs to be there is more important than how it gets there. But awd probably isn't countersteering as much and can use throttle to correct to some extent I would think. So maybe a bit more precision is possible/necessary.

Rallycross is a little different depending on surface conditions, but in autocross cutting distance is almost always the right answer.

I ran my daily Legacy wagon against a field of stripped out Imprezas on a clay surface, for me the key was to drive where the grip was keeping it clean and carrying as much speed as possible around the course and I was pretty successful at that. Typical with our courses the loose stuff would get pushed to the outside of corners with nice hard packed clay on the inside so keeping it tight to apexes meant I could carry more speed even though the corner might not be as open. My car always looked slow and the pictures weren't as dramatic but I was up near the top of the results in a car that shouldn't be there.

We tended to run as a single run group throughout the full day in our car order with a break for lunch for volunteers in the middle of the day. If there was time during the break I would wander out to any corners I felt I was struggling with to see how I could improve and where I should put the car,it usually resulted in faster times through the afternoon.

Sounds like a broken record but look further ahead. Ever notice how new drivers tend to make lots of steering corrections going straight down a road? Yeah, it's cuz they are looking at the hood ornament. The further ahead you look the smoother you can be. 

Also, it's really hard to do, but maybe take a few runs at 7/10ths and see what happens. Too hot on corner entry and excessive steering inputs are both symptoms of driving at 11/10ths (which, as you note, is generally fun but not fast). 

Final note is that when I am overdriving, I tend to forget to steer with the throttle. And if you're not steering with the throttle, you're forced to use your hands .

So we ran on dry lake beds and you could get do stuff on those big open courses that would likely make you slow on most  courses. I wouldn't drive the way I am in the picture on most stage or rally-x courses, but in this case it was the fastest way. The dry lake bed would actually build up a cushion like on a dirt track.  Point being a course may require different approaches throughout the day. 

I don't do in car video yet.  I should start eventually.  I know at times I need to look further ahead.  I'm usually looking 1-2 turns ahead.  Every now and then I get distracted by course markers that are just too close to the line. 
 

And AWD and dirt has made 10.5/10 too fun.  I'm not good enough to do 11/10 and stay on course.  My fastest times are probably done at 9/10 though.  I really need to clean things up and figure out where 10/10 is possible for me.  
 

I took a photo to give you guys an idea of how much grip we have on outlet local course.  It's not pavement, but it's not very loose or fluffy unless you get way offline.  
 

This is my left front.  Right front is a little more abused due to the fluffy stuff.  
 

My planned mods for next year are limited slip rear diff, faster steering rack, STI steering coupler, decent seats, harnesses, and maybe a header (since they are cheap).  I can also do shifter bushings and a knob and be in prepared 4.  This also gives me someone to run against often in a newer WRX.  I will probably do Koni's too.  I already have the diff and steering stuff.  
 

I'm also looking at a rally school in Austin.  

With that much surface grip and awd I wouldn't hang the ass end out at all. My crosstrek does wonders at rx when I let the nannies prevent sliding. Grip is still the key here. More grip. Faster exits. Better times. 

Junghole said:

With that much surface grip and awd I wouldn't hang the ass end out at all. My crosstrek does wonders at rx when I let the nannies prevent sliding. Grip is still the key here. More grip. Faster exits. Better times. 

No nannies here.  The car understeers in slow corners and is loose in faster corners on this surface.  Letting the rear end rotate makes it significantly faster in high speed transitions.  Honestly that's where the car makes up time against others.  The longer and faster the course the better it does overall.

Ah, the great hand over hand vs shuffle steering debate.  I suspect this has been a question debated since tillers were no longer in vogue.  Here's my take based on over 40 years of motorsports in a variety of disciplines. 

I doesn't matter.  Yup.  I said it.  Here's my justification;  Championship winning drivers across multiple disciplines use both techniques.  I think that the important thing is to pick a technique, practice it and stick with it.  Personally, I'm a hand over hand guy.  I started on dirt and I felt like hand over hand was the fastest way for me to turn those overpowered, manual steering, modifieds from lock to lock as fast as possible and at that time those cars would often require multiple lock to lock swings in one corner.

I recommend deliberately practicing whatever technique you use in your street car to build the muscle memory.

As far as lines are concerned I've never Rallycrossed but I'm assuming that like a dirt track the more grippy the surface the less slip angle you want for a fast lap.  On a dirt track you can hunt around every lap experimenting with you line and how hung out the car is to see what's fastest.  I didn't usually have a radio to get lap times so I'd pay attention to my RPM at the flagstand on the front stretch and a weed or something on the back stretch to evaluate how I was doing.

With Rallycross and today's tools I'm thinking that you could run a basic data acquisition system (even a phone app would work) and look at the data after a run to see how whatever you were trying worked.  You're at the point now where you're looking at fractions of seconds not full seconds so you're going to need better feedback than "that felt good". 

Practice deliberately.  Try a run where you've got the car hung out sideways against the cushion on the fast corners and then another where it's straighter and closer to the inside. Try slower and faster entries.  Don't try and change too much for each run.  The general guideline is no more than three things.  For me two is better.  Keep notes on the track conditions and what worked and what didn't.  Eventually you'll start to develop a better sense of what the car wants for different conditions and types of corners.

In reply to APEowner :

Thanks for all that help.  I probably do need video or data acquisition.  Bumping up against the faster folks does make each tenth more important.  I was 1.5 seconds out of 3rd, 1.6 from 2nd, but 5 full seconds ahead of 5th based on average time.  On fastest time I'm usually a bit closer.  I'm getting closer each event too.  I have no clue how the end of season night race will go

I'm also considering a trip back to Austin to run against more stock class Subaru's and see how or if I've improved.
 

Hello Anthony, 

Nice tight running. 

We met at one of the rallycross events there,  I was in the Kia Forte. 

I'll try to make the night run on the 30th.

As a newby I'm enjoying the rallycross techniques information, keep going. I need to find a rallycross 101 guide.

NoBrakesRacing said:

Hello Anthony, 

Nice tight running. 

We met at one of the rallycross events there,  I was in the Kia Forte. 

I'll try to make the night run on the 30th.

As a newby I'm enjoying the rallycross techniques information, keep going. I need to find a rallycross 101 guide.

My advice ride with Dan and Blanton if you can handle his passenger seat.  I cannot.  You can ride with me too, but they are definitely better.  
 

Dan and Blanton both have a lot of seat time and experience.  

I've got no good advice, but I think this is the Honda you are talking about:

and some poor quality drone video of the Forte:

Yes that is Blanton's Honda.  I can't handle riding in that but having him ride and drive my car was very enlightening.  

If your local rallycross groups are anything like what we've got here, don't just compare times within your class.  If you're in S4, compare times and such with prepared and mod 4 as well.  The mod cars should be fastest, but depending on driver skill and the conditions of the day, I've seen times where someone in stock 4 outran all of the mod and prepared cars. 

rslifkin said:

If your local rallycross groups are anything like what we've got here, don't just compare times within your class.  If you're in S4, compare times and such with prepared and mod 4 as well.  The mod cars should be fastest, but depending on driver skill and the conditions of the day, I've seen times where someone in stock 4 outran all of the mod and prepared cars. 

I have no one else to compare to locally.  Blanton who always sets FTD in his mod fwd (pictured) rode with me and drove my car with me riding.  He drove it solo while I watched too.  It's about the best comparison I can get.  
 

Any of my codrivers (family and friends) are usually a lot slower.  The last time another Subaru did show up, I was quite a bit faster, but I think they had car problems.  
 

The only other stock 4 vehicle that comes regularly is a Porsche Cayenne GTS.  Our vehicles have little to nothing in common.  He has the best electronic driving aids in the world, I have none.  The crazy thing is how close our times can be.  
 

Come to a NTX rallycross, and you can drive my car.  I'm happy to share;

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Thank you, I'll take you up on that next time. 

I still haven't found line the Kia wants. My cherokee is a lot more neutral handling but it's also not a great idea to run it.

In reply to AAZCD (Forum Supporter) :

Thank you for the video, I didn't know there was one.

What were you driving? That's how I remember people.

In reply to NoBrakesRacing :

I drove the black/red Porsche Boxster, former $2000 Challenge car. It's gonna need a bit of work before it goes out again.

NoBrakesRacing said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Thank you, I'll take you up on that next time. 

I still haven't found line the Kia wants. My cherokee is a lot more neutral handling but it's also not a great idea to run it.

 

Because of the surface we run on the shortest tightest line is almost always the fastest.  Largely because Dan and Blanton clean it off so well.  The end of the day always has the fastest times since the dirt gets packed in and the dust knocked off.