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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/26/21 5:13 p.m.

I've put out some info on this stuff before. But it looks like the EPA finally superseded the infamous Memo 1A that has guided aftermarket emissions parts since 1975.

I would request that we keep this discussion out of the "they'll pry my test pipe from my cold dead hands!" territory and focus on what it actually means for the performance aftermarket. That'll be a lot more useful than bitching. We've known there were changes coming for some time. 

The new memo, straight from the EPA

I'm going to have to spend some more time reading this, but here are a few highlights that jumped out. Very little of it is a surprise, really.

- street cars that have been converted full-time to competition cars are outside the scope of the memo. However, cars that are still used on the street even rarely are still street cars. The exemption is for cars that are no longer registered and are trailered everywhere.

- race parts for the above cars are also not in the scope of the memo. Based on previous discussions, expect it to be the responsibility of the vendor to make sure these parts are not used for street cars. Putting "for race use only" on a website will not count. Only selling to customers who have undergone some sort of verification, that would count. See Mazda's competition department as an example.

- this makes it very clear that screwing with sensors used by the OBD system is no bueno. O2 deletes, EGR deletes, O2 spoofers, different MAFs or modified signals, etc.

- while it does make it illegal to tamper with your own car, this will really be aimed at those who sell and/or install these parts. The EPA can have a much bigger effect by shutting down a shop that makes coal rollin' parts than it can in trying to catch all the coal rollers. In the past, the fines involved have been big enough to really hurt a company but not put them out of business.

- it's not good news for those that sell parts for radical engine swaps, such as LS motors or K24s into newer chassis. This is not something I'd heard mentioned before as a potential area of enforcement, although it's not a complete surprise.

 

 

mad_machine (Forum Supporter)
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/26/21 5:43 p.m.

well, hasn't the EPA followed California into the realm of "car must pass the emissions of the newer engine"? So if I stuck a K24 in my 1977 Fiat, I would have to have the emissions of the car the K24 came out of?

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
1/26/21 5:47 p.m.

I'm thinking this may cut down on some of the half-assery mods I see perpetrated on newer cars. If so I find it a good thing.

The down side obviously is the folks who sell the parts that make half-assery mods possible on street cars may take a big hit.

I'm also thinking it may get down on the less than scrupulous suppliers but maybe not.

preach (fs)
preach (fs) HalfDork
1/26/21 5:54 p.m.
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) said:

well, hasn't the EPA followed California into the realm of "car must pass the emissions of the newer engine"? So if I stuck a K24 in my 1977 Fiat, I would have to have the emissions of the car the K24 came out of?

Note v on page 7.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
1/26/21 5:55 p.m.

I'm going to follow the "if you don't have anything nice to say" mantra. 

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
1/26/21 5:59 p.m.

Thanks for sharing Keith.. definitely a very interesting topic and one we will have to keep an eye on for a while.

 

matthewmcl (Forum Supporter)
matthewmcl (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
1/26/21 6:12 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Keith,

Is there anything that you would put on the short list of things that may soon be NLA or just a lot of hoops to jump through to get?

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) UberDork
1/26/21 6:19 p.m.
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) said:

well, hasn't the EPA followed California into the realm of "car must pass the emissions of the newer engine"? So if I stuck a K24 in my 1977 Fiat, I would have to have the emissions of the car the K24 came out of?

Yeah, I wonder what this means for cars that have been "BAR swapped".

rodknock
rodknock Reader
1/26/21 6:21 p.m.

Keith, didn't you say a while back that the looming threat of this regulatory change was why FM stopped selling engine management systems?

I wonder how this will affect the turbo Miata guys who street drive their cars if Megasquirt or similar is harder to obtain. 

flat4_5spd
flat4_5spd New Reader
1/26/21 7:33 p.m.

Would non-application specific engine management be ok? One could be purchasing megasquirt to fuel inject a pre-emissions control '55 Ford or whatever. I'm guessing that plug-and-play harnesses for specific emissions controlled vehicles could be another story. It will also be interesting to see if this creates a resale market where bona fide racers buy 'track use only' parts and then flip them to other people for street car use. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
1/26/21 7:50 p.m.
matthewmcl (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Keith,

Is there anything that you would put on the short list of things that may soon be NLA or just a lot of hoops to jump through to get?

i am planning on buying an HPTuners dongle as soon as I get home.

Also, a couple MS boxes

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
1/27/21 5:39 a.m.
flat4_5spd said:

Would non-application specific engine management be ok? One could be purchasing megasquirt to fuel inject a pre-emissions control '55 Ford or whatever. I'm guessing that plug-and-play harnesses for specific emissions controlled vehicles could be another story. It will also be interesting to see if this creates a resale market where bona fide racers buy 'track use only' parts and then flip them to other people for street car use. 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. As Keith mentioned, things that try and keep OBD compatibility are likely the first targets. An aftermarket computer, even if plugging into the stock wiring harness, can reasonably be a race part as it does not try and dupe emissions, it's just simply not there. I am trying to come up with a verification process myself as a CYA as that's probably ~75% of my sales.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/27/21 6:15 a.m.
flat4_5spd said:

Would non-application specific engine management be ok? One could be purchasing megasquirt to fuel inject a pre-emissions control '55 Ford or whatever. I'm guessing that plug-and-play harnesses for specific emissions controlled vehicles could be another story. It will also be interesting to see if this creates a resale market where bona fide racers buy 'track use only' parts and then flip them to other people for street car use. 

For cars pre '68, there are no restrictions.  '68-'72 has CA restrictions, but the rest of the states would be open.

But for cars post- there are notes that if the application of the modification is better, then they would accept that- so a well done MS that replaces any carb (normal or feedback) that also puts in a modern catalyst would be ok.

And there's a good argument to me made for cars up to OBDI that an MS + a catalyst would be an improvement- couple of tests would even prove that.  OBDI would mean MS would have to add some basic OBD- which I can't remember what that entailed- but it could also be shown that all OBDI cars can be updated to MS + new catalyst would also be an improvement.

Indy "Nub" Guy
Indy "Nub" Guy PowerDork
1/27/21 6:29 a.m.

=====>  Off to eBay to grab those LS Swap parts before they disappear.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
1/27/21 6:43 a.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
but it could also be shown that all OBDI cars can be updated to MS + new catalyst would also be an improvement.

This thought is interesting to me, but thinking about it: how many examples of that need to be made to make it true across a wide range of installations? Considering most of these installations need to be individually tuned, even if they are operating closed loop most of the time. 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/27/21 7:47 a.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

As I see it, the required range of being closed loop with a stoich target can be constrained in the code- as part of the ability to sell it.  As would the basic OBDI functions.  

You are right that individual tuning would be required, but *in theory* a process could be come up with so that to show the ability across more than one vehicle to demonstrate ability.  And what this option as going for it- even the crappy aftermarket legal catalysts are better than the period ones.  

It's been a long time since i looked at old emissions standards, and I never actually worked on any OBDI emissions project- but WB sensor turned on pretty early, going closed loop with a pretty defined target window would make the worst part so much cleaner that the overall requirements would not be hard to pass.  And IIRC, the ONLY test required for OBDI is the FTP75- nothing else.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/27/21 8:00 a.m.

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

One other thing to add- for the OBDI cars, one would have to look up what the requirements were- Tier 0 or Tier 1, but for the most part, if you target the tough ones, the easy ones will be.... well, easy.

From a federal standpoint- there's Tier 0 and Tier 1 requirements- https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi?Dockey=P100O9ZP.pdf

With a reasonably quick light off WB sensor with some basic cold start banding and a decent aftermarket catalyst, those standards would be pretty easy to pass.  

Have to look up CA's requirements- as they were the ones driving the OBD train.

Olemiss540
Olemiss540 Reader
1/27/21 8:16 a.m.

"focus on what it actually means for the performance aftermarket"

What performance aftermarket?

Sorry Keith, I only visit this forum to wisecrack and bitch so hope this doesn't come across as breaking the threads rules. 

All of my dreams for various LS swapped street cars (goodbye Land Rovers) going down the drain tubes. Luckily my LS swapped BMW is a racecar ONLY thanks to the cage but I am always concerned with regards to our hobby and how much longer it can last (track events) due to a combination of environmental (noise, emmissions, safety) and insurance lobbying. Will enjoy it while it lasts....

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/27/21 8:25 a.m.

About MS - as long as the customer has the ability to tune it, it will not likely be legal. You can prove that it's possible to make it work, but that's not a guarantee it will always work and that's not what the EPA is looking for. But if you lock it down, you can get approval. We've done that a couple of times.

It's pretty unlikely that the guys running around with turbo Miatas running programmable ECUs will have a problem at the federal level. The EPA focuses on the people selling and installing the parts because it's better to go to the source if you're trying to address a larger number of cars. The states take care of individual cars at registration but of course that varies from state to state.

The first products that disappear are the ones already disappearing - the ones specifically intended to circumvent emissions control systems. O2 "simulators", test pipes, EGR deletes. Various boxes that let you use alterate parts such as a MAF scaling box to use different injectors would have to get an EO. HP Tuners is an interesting case because it can be used for a lot of good things including loading in updated valid tunes, but it can also be used for very clear circumvention like turning off the errors for a missing secondary O2 sensor.

If I were looking to come up with a valid way to verify customers as race customers, I'd take a good look at how Mazda does it. They even have different categories for different types of shops as well as individuals. For example, BSI probably has access to a different range of parts than Flyin' Miata does, because Flyin' Miata does not just build race cars.

It is possible to have a performance aftermarket while maintaining emissions. FM has turbo kits for most Miatas and we just have to do the hardware engineering for the NC. We also have a legal supercharger for that platform. It's even possible to get an EO for an LS swap - there's one for a Jeep.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/27/21 8:34 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Keith- Just noticed that the linked memo was from Nov 2020.  Did you guys just get to it?

As for the aftermarket boxes- in theory, it can be shown that even with tuning that the emissions standards can be passed....  Would take some effort, but it could be done.  Mostly about the basic a/f map and what is and isn't allowed.  Especially as the cars get older, and the standards get more basic.

While it may be a very small part of the aftermarket, the SEMA group may want to look into this and see if it's possible.  

CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter)
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) Reader
1/27/21 8:38 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

- street cars that have been converted full-time to competition cars are outside the scope of the memo. However, cars that are still used on the street even rarely are still street cars. The exemption is for cars that are no longer registered and are trailered everywhere.

 

I wonder if they considered some sort of mileage limit on enthusiast vehicles with modified ECUs. I see many people drive their car to autoX and nowhere else (something similar probably exists in the 4x4 community). The total mileage is probably a thousand miles a year but many don't have room/money for a trailer and tow rig. Mileage is checked at the same time emissions so that part of the verifications system is already in place.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/27/21 8:40 a.m.

I just found out about it yesterday. There was some other stuff in the news in November as it turns out. A tuner from Roush who is a very strong advocate of running legal passed it along.

I agree that we can certainly show that it's possible to improve emissions with the aftermarket boxes, but it's also possible they could be made much worse. If someone wants to come up with a list of tables that have to be left alone and they are somehow locked down, then I can see the box being approved. But that's going to likely cover ignition and fuel tables which is what most people want to screw with :)

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/27/21 8:43 a.m.
CrustyRedXpress (Forum Supporter) said:
Keith Tanner said:

- street cars that have been converted full-time to competition cars are outside the scope of the memo. However, cars that are still used on the street even rarely are still street cars. The exemption is for cars that are no longer registered and are trailered everywhere.

 

I wonder if they considered some sort of mileage limit on enthusiast vehicles with modified ECUs. I see many people drive their car to autoX and nowhere else (something similar probably exists in the 4x4 community). The total mileage is probably a thousand miles a year but many don't have room/money for a trailer and tow rig. Mileage is checked at the same time emissions so that part of the verifications system is already in place.

The solution there is to keep the car emissions legal. "I only drive it to and from events, I swear" isn't really something you can trust so you need a clear line :) Want plates? It's a street car, keep it legal. It's like the CA non-op registration, the car even has to be transported with four wheels off the pavement. If you use a tow dolly, the non-op is void.

Mileage is not checked annually in all areas, and once a car is past a certain age the odometer is not really trusted anyhow.

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) Dork
1/27/21 9:03 a.m.

Marijuana is illegal where I live and is for sale on every street corner. Who is to say that illegal black boxes will be for sale everywhere as soon as they are outlawed the same way. They will just be more expensive and built by underground shops and garages.

Those sideshow people and street racers have already shown they have no respect for laws.

 

Vajingo
Vajingo Reader
1/27/21 9:11 a.m.

I think the parts to hoard right now are all the oem Miata ecus. Then you can go on forums and post this link (that no one will read), and then post up in the for sale forum "legal ecus for sale!"

you'll have all of the uninformed begging for your oem equipment. 

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