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Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom UltimaDork
9/11/20 1:00 p.m.

I just noticed that by the time you get AWD and the larger battery option (You have to start with one trim level up from base to have the long range battery option), making it apples to apples on range and AWD, a Mach E and a Polestar 2 are within $2,200 of each other. And you need the still-here but temporary tax credit just to get the Mach E down to the cost of a Model Y.

I cannot, for the life of me, fathom buying a Mach E given that proposition. Unless, of course, you don't need (or, uh, want) the extra range or AWD.

What gives?

Vajingo
Vajingo New Reader
9/11/20 7:23 p.m.

Do you REALLY need the extra range?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
9/11/20 7:50 p.m.

Total cost of ownership needs to be taken into account if you're comparing ICE to EV. If you're charging from home most of the time, your fuel costs drop way down. For example, last time I did the math we only averaged 27 miles/day on our EV but that's saving us $122/month compared to the Grand Cherokee it replaced. That doesn't include the maintenance costs.

Trying to compare "apples to apples" on range is a goofy thing. Remember, your EV starts every day with a full "tank" so the range is actually infinite if you stay within a certain radius of your house. 

I just realized the Polestar 2 is an EV. Ooops :) So ignore all that.

Ford is not really any good at selling at MSRP. F150s are basically $10k off permanently. I wonder what the actual if you buy today out the door price will be. Also, what other features does the Ford bring to the table? If we bought ICE vehicles purely on price and drive there would be no Ferraris, only Corvettes :)

vsquaredbyrho
vsquaredbyrho New Reader
9/11/20 8:16 p.m.

The Polestar 2 should have a lower-spec version out later (next year?) with a lower price. They're opening with the fancy trim. Maybe Ford is doing the same thing? If the tax credit disappears, the first out fancy trim might turn out to have been a great deal.

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
9/11/20 8:48 p.m.

Some people are Tesla people, others are Volvo/Polestar people, others are Ford people.  Each one will pay what it takes to get what they want.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
9/11/20 8:57 p.m.

I don't think the tax credit is going anywhere. About the only people who would want it to disappear are Tesla and Nissan and Chevy, as I think they've hit their limits. And maybe FCA because they can't figure out this electric thing.

STM317
STM317 UberDork
9/11/20 9:34 p.m.

EV range ratings aren't perfect. Tesla's rated range seems to be a bit optimistic many times. The Porsche Taycan on the other hand routinely exceeds it's EPA rated range in the real world. Best to compare real world ranges of the given models before drawing any concrete conclusions.

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom UltimaDork
9/11/20 9:46 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Oh, I just meant the tax credit was temporary in that eventually they'd sell enough cars to nullify it. Can you imagine paying $8k more for a Mach E than a Model Y?

And to another of your points why would anybody take the Corvette if it cost as much as the Ferrari? But to bring a third point of yours in, we'll have to see how the discount from MSRP works when it's not preorders...

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom UltimaDork
9/11/20 9:47 p.m.

As a caveat to my last post, Oregon is on fire and I'm on my second Manhattan before dinner. Apologies if I've hiccuped.

ddavidv
ddavidv PowerDork
9/12/20 5:25 a.m.

The Mach E is not a Mustang. I wouldn't buy one on principle.

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
9/12/20 7:04 a.m.


 

Outside near my hotel mid-summer.  

STM317
STM317 UberDork
9/12/20 7:06 a.m.
Jesse Ransom said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Can you imagine paying $8k more for a Mach E than a Model Y?

If they're built better than the Model Y, I can see the value proposition. No manufacturer is perfect. Ford certainly isn't, but Tesla has earned a reputation for poor quality and improper product validation. Hopefully Ford can screw them together well enough that buyers aren't so bothered by poor fitting panels that they disassemble their new $55k vehicles to tweak alignment, only to find bodged together bandaid repairs like those discussed in that thread.

Everybody who's compared the Taycan to the Model S comments about how much difference there is in quality and feel and there's almost no drop off in performance over time with the Porsche. The Porsche is far more expensive, but that money went into being a better car. The same could hold true for the Mach E (on a smaller scale). Only time will tell.

MrChaos
MrChaos SuperDork
9/12/20 8:23 a.m.

also if you need service, there are zero tesla service centers within 100 miles of me, 1 volvo dealer, and about 20-25 ford dealers

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
9/12/20 9:42 a.m.
MrChaos said:

also if you need service, there are zero tesla service centers within 100 miles of me, 1 volvo dealer, and about 20-25 ford dealers

It doesn't really matter; search Fiat 500e 's and you'll find hordes of horror stories of dealerships refusing to service them, many without any excuse. You'll eventually find one that will, but that's the questionof how many you have to sift through.

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
9/12/20 9:46 a.m.
STM317 said:
Jesse Ransom said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Can you imagine paying $8k more for a Mach E than a Model Y?

If they're built better than the Model Y, I can see the value proposition. No manufacturer is perfect. Ford certainly isn't, but Tesla has earned a reputation for poor quality and improper product validation. Hopefully Ford can screw them together well enough that buyers aren't so bothered by poor fitting panels that they disassemble their new $55k vehicles to tweak alignment, only to find bodged together bandaid repairs like those discussed in that thread.

Everybody who's compared the Taycan to the Model S comments about how much difference there is in quality and feel and there's almost no drop off in performance over time with the Porsche. The Porsche is far more expensive, but that money went into being a better car. The same could hold true for the Mach E (on a smaller scale). Only time will tell.

Anyone else see the Rich Rebuilds episode where he snagged another Model S to retrofit his with FSD and a newer chipset, only to get a salvaged prototype car with the system spliced in? Like, im not sure what's worse; how much he hammed it up for youtube, or that I'd honestly believe Tesla would do that.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/12/20 9:53 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I don't think the tax credit is going anywhere. About the only people who would want it to disappear are Tesla and Nissan and Chevy, as I think they've hit their limits. And maybe FCA because they can't figure out this electric thing.

I wouldn't want an electric FCA anything, and to be honest I have a hard time trusting them with gasoline.

MrChaos
MrChaos SuperDork
9/12/20 10:26 a.m.
GIRTHQUAKE said:
MrChaos said:

also if you need service, there are zero tesla service centers within 100 miles of me, 1 volvo dealer, and about 20-25 ford dealers

It doesn't really matter; search Fiat 500e 's and you'll find hordes of horror stories of dealerships refusing to service them, many without any excuse. You'll eventually find one that will, but that's the questionof how many you have to sift through.

I mean ive seen stories of dealers not working on Fiats at all. even if they sell all the other fca vehicles 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
9/12/20 10:33 a.m.
MrChaos said:

also if you need service, there are zero tesla service centers within 100 miles of me, 1 volvo dealer, and about 20-25 ford dealers

Volvo service for me is a 500 mile round trip. Tesla service comes to my house. What's the problem?

mfennell
mfennell Reader
9/12/20 10:41 a.m.
STM317 said:

If they're built better than the Model Y, I can see the value proposition. No manufacturer is perfect. Ford certainly isn't, but Tesla has earned a reputation for poor quality and improper product validation. Hopefully Ford can screw them together well enough that buyers aren't so bothered by poor fitting panels that they disassemble their new $55k vehicles to tweak alignment, only to find bodged together bandaid repairs like those discussed in that thread.

Tesla service can be a fiasco too.  A friend of mine has a '13 Model S P85+.  Battery failed, Tesla replaced it, replacement battery failed.  He says that every service visit is a hassle.  The car would be long gone and replaced with a Taycan but his wife thinks the Porsche is too flashy (he dailies a worked over 997 GT2 and used to own a Carrera GT :) ).

Another friend just traded his P90 on a '13 911 4S Cab.  He had slightly better service results except for the time the mobile guy came to replace the brakes and broke two bolts, requiring a tow to service and generating an $800 bill IIRC.  The battery had been replaced on that car too.

Tesla is really anti-consumer with respect to right to repair too.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
9/12/20 11:18 a.m.
GIRTHQUAKE said:
STM317 said:
Jesse Ransom said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Can you imagine paying $8k more for a Mach E than a Model Y?

If they're built better than the Model Y, I can see the value proposition. No manufacturer is perfect. Ford certainly isn't, but Tesla has earned a reputation for poor quality and improper product validation. Hopefully Ford can screw them together well enough that buyers aren't so bothered by poor fitting panels that they disassemble their new $55k vehicles to tweak alignment, only to find bodged together bandaid repairs like those discussed in that thread.

Everybody who's compared the Taycan to the Model S comments about how much difference there is in quality and feel and there's almost no drop off in performance over time with the Porsche. The Porsche is far more expensive, but that money went into being a better car. The same could hold true for the Mach E (on a smaller scale). Only time will tell.

Anyone else see the Rich Rebuilds episode where he snagged another Model S to retrofit his with FSD and a newer chipset, only to get a salvaged prototype car with the system spliced in? Like, im not sure what's worse; how much he hammed it up for youtube, or that I'd honestly believe Tesla would do that.

That car that Rich found may have technically violated some federal laws. If it was a prototype sold to the public was it crash tested?  This is one of the reasons you don't see many prototypes from other car manufacturers out in the wild. They know that if something was to happen with one they would be in big trouble.  Why they get cut up and crushed when the testing is done or stuffed in a warehouse never to be seen again for 50 years. On of these days Testla is going to get in really big trouble.  

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom UltimaDork
9/12/20 2:16 p.m.

Some good points here.

I'm not sure how to summarize the Tesla situation. In some ways it reminds me of the VW TDI HPFP issues from somewhere around ten years ago... Seems to me they failed at an unacceptably high rate and it was a game of roulette as to whether they'd take care of you or you'd be out $10k for the utter destruction of the fueling system when one went and cascaded shrapnel downstream. But that unacceptably high number (was it around 1% of cars?) was still a small enough proportion that you didn't have to be crazy to risk it, given the awesome mpg/performance balance and package. Even if they'd dialed it back the 2% power/mpg or whatever it was that the dieselgate tweaks got them.

Dieselgate's absolutely criminal example brings us to the next point. Tesla clearly, obviously, behaves shockingly some of the time. The thing is... I don't think you can buy a car from someone who doesn't. My willingness to gamble on having to have rework done on issues or being an enabler to Elon Musk varies day to day. The Home Depot mounting pads above are clearly in a special league that I can't imagine turning up on a Ford, but more for its shocking appearance than for its intrinsic issues. But even that seems like an easier fix than the Focus/Fiesta transmissions, which aren't as shocking to look at, but are actually more expensive and intractable, and apparently just about as known to the manufacturer when they went out the door.

The more I think about it, the less I want to deal with any of them... And yet, most of our cars work most of the time, usually better than the ones from 20 years ago. I've heard so much terrible stuff about modern BMW/Mini, but I've had one cracked spark plug insulator and one buzzy speaker in four and a half years and 57k miles on our '16 Cooper.

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom UltimaDork
9/12/20 2:17 p.m.

Also, I need to sit *in* a modern Ford, and specifically a Mach E. The Focus and C-Max I looked at when we went with the Mini were pretty... unimpressive, but that's a small, low-end sample.

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
9/12/20 6:23 p.m.

In reply to Jesse Ransom :

Right? Sometimes it's really hard to zoom out and have a clear scope on these production issues when some stuff gets so loud by the faithful and the detractors- a friend of mine was caught up with that transmission issue that easily could have robbed him of his only car, and there's claim that Aus going full class-action against Ford just hastened them leaving the nation. It affecting what, over half a million vehicles now? It still makes me weary of buying one, even though I've made up my mind that my next car would be an EV.

 

In reply to dean1484 :

I'm not sure, which is why I also say "for hamming up for youtube views". Rich does it (they all do, it's just the game) and it's not odd to think Tesla would quietly try to sell their prototype* off as salvage to recoup costs for a company that has seriously needed cash in the past. But Tesla routinely plays fast n' loose and relies on their cult status to carry them all too frequently while at the same time, being doggedly against repair laws on a vehicle that's mechanically pretty simple.

*The VIN showed in the episode, if his reading codes is correct, prooves it.

Raze (Forum Supporter)
Raze (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/12/20 6:46 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Keith Tanner said:

I don't think the tax credit is going anywhere. About the only people who would want it to disappear are Tesla and Nissan and Chevy, as I think they've hit their limits. And maybe FCA because they can't figure out this electric thing.

I wouldn't want an electric FCA anything, and to be honest I have a hard time trusting them with gasoline.

Truth...the melted o2 sensor wiring...twice on wife's brand new 400 mile 2019 Wrangler, and the finance guy point blank telling us to get extended warranty cause electronics.

Raze (Forum Supporter)
Raze (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
9/12/20 6:48 p.m.
dean1484 said:
GIRTHQUAKE said:
STM317 said:
Jesse Ransom said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Can you imagine paying $8k more for a Mach E than a Model Y?

If they're built better than the Model Y, I can see the value proposition. No manufacturer is perfect. Ford certainly isn't, but Tesla has earned a reputation for poor quality and improper product validation. Hopefully Ford can screw them together well enough that buyers aren't so bothered by poor fitting panels that they disassemble their new $55k vehicles to tweak alignment, only to find bodged together bandaid repairs like those discussed in that thread.

Everybody who's compared the Taycan to the Model S comments about how much difference there is in quality and feel and there's almost no drop off in performance over time with the Porsche. The Porsche is far more expensive, but that money went into being a better car. The same could hold true for the Mach E (on a smaller scale). Only time will tell.

Anyone else see the Rich Rebuilds episode where he snagged another Model S to retrofit his with FSD and a newer chipset, only to get a salvaged prototype car with the system spliced in? Like, im not sure what's worse; how much he hammed it up for youtube, or that I'd honestly believe Tesla would do that.

That car that Rich found may have technically violated some federal laws. If it was a prototype sold to the public was it crash tested?  This is one of the reasons you don't see many prototypes from other car manufacturers out in the wild. They know that if something was to happen with one they would be in big trouble.  Why they get cut up and crushed when the testing is done or stuffed in a warehouse never to be seen again for 50 years. On of these days Testla is going to get in really big trouble.  

You guys seen the new production model y heat exchanger held on with wood trim from home depot and a boxing strap?

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