Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/20/21 7:14 p.m.

I suspect that what we saw on the broadcast was not a complete reflection of what was going on at the track. There was a delay and some incomplete info. The fact that Bottas and Sainz only saw a single yellow whilst Max got doubles (based on the reported infractions) indicates it was a dynamic situation. That's why the actual flags take precedence over everything else.

759NRNG
759NRNG UberDork
11/20/21 7:40 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I suspect that what we saw on the broadcast was not a complete reflection of what was going on at the track. There was a delay and some incomplete info. The fact that Bottas and Sainz only saw a single yellow whilst Max got doubles (based on the reported infractions) indicates it was a dynamic situation. That's why the actual flags take precedence over everything else.

All to facilitate King Lewis's march to his eighth world championship ......

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/20/21 7:42 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The part that kind of confused me and seeing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21CYh2Kny-A&ab_channel=CarsGaze makes me think that few penalties should be given out.  The system to alert drivers was not fully working, and the yellow flag was not all that illuminated.  

I was expecting all of the lights to be yellow along the track, but they were all either blue or green.  And the warnings on the steering wheels were all blank.  It was down to that single flag location on the front straight.  The track needs to sort this out, it seems.

While penalties may be given out, the fact the system was not fully working suggests that the have good reason to not get them.  And work needs to be done prior to tomorrow.

Edit- it's almost as if that one flag stand decided to throw a yellow, and didn't notify anyone.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/20/21 7:44 p.m.

In reply to 759NRNG :

If all you look for is conspiracies, they are easy to make up.

 

steronz
steronz Reader
11/20/21 7:54 p.m.

Well Vettel said he assumed the flag was cleared so as not to impede Max's lap. Tinfoil hats on, I don't think anyone wants this title match to come down to technicalities, hence no penalty for Max in Brazil. 

From the broadcast, yellow flags were triggered in sector 3 and then cleared, and that happened twice. If Vettel's hunch is correct, the flagger could have triggered a standing yellow which was quickly cleared by race control. Confused, he triggered it again, and again it was cleared. Seeing cars not slowing down and unsure of why the flag keeps getting cleared, he eventually starts waving double yellows. 

Who knows, though. It was certainly a mess but the penalty for Verstappen seems like a slam dunk. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/20/21 8:00 p.m.

There is a specific priority to the alerts, and physical flags on flag stands are at the top of the list. That's because of the confusion that can happen when things are happening quickly. That video shows a single yellow flag for both Bottas and Sainz and a double for Max - which is exactly what they have to go talk to the stewards about. Did they react properly? Well, that's what the meeting is about. And it'll just be how the one driver reacted to what the one driver saw, looking at other cars like the Aston is outside the scope of this particular investigation. There may very well be other changes coming as a result of this, but when it comes to potential grid penalities it's all about that one driver in that one situation.

Sir Lewis (he's not a king, just a knight) got nailed for blowing a yellow during quali last year, Max did the same the year before. 

Watching that video, I'd probably have missed almost all of the flags. But I'm not paid millions of dollars a year to be one of the best drivers in the world either :)

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
11/20/21 8:31 p.m.

Well IF this "let them race" BS  resulted in pulling double yellow flags just to make sure Max got his lap in when a front wing exploded on track. It sounds like Liberty is ignoring the sad situation of Jules Bianchi's death. 

Yellows need to mean something!

 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
11/20/21 8:38 p.m.

So did RBR blame Gasley for Max missing pole?

I was behind Massi until he commented after Brazil that he was developing a "let them race" sub set of rules where Max and RBR can do anything to try and finally beat MBs without punishment. 

I am quite happy that Toto mentioned the best driving moment of Lewis' race in Brazil was somehow avoiding the amateurish (that "I'm a great blocker" guy at the go kart track) type move of Max just driving a truck length off track. 

Max is talented and like Schumacher he should just use that talent to win and not keep trying to crash into people to try and win.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
11/20/21 8:57 p.m.
759NRNG said:
Keith Tanner said:

I suspect that what we saw on the broadcast was not a complete reflection of what was going on at the track. There was a delay and some incomplete info. The fact that Bottas and Sainz only saw a single yellow whilst Max got doubles (based on the reported infractions) indicates it was a dynamic situation. That's why the actual flags take precedence over everything else.

All to facilitate King Lewis's march to his eighth world championship ......

Hmmm interesting... so the corner workers are in on this too or is it just the one who tried to throw the yellow flag at Max's car as he screamed past without lifting for the very visibly stalled car sitting on the track just a few feet to his right?

steronz
steronz Reader
11/20/21 9:03 p.m.
Advan046 said:

So did RBR blame Gasley for Max missing pole?

Well they can't blame Gasley because Max didn't lift. 

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
11/20/21 11:06 p.m.

loosecannon
loosecannon SuperDork
11/21/21 6:40 a.m.

Bottas gets a 3 place grid penalty for passing a single waved yellow, so what happens to Max for passing a double yellow? We have yet to see but if he doesn't get a penalty then I think we have proof that the referees of this sport are favoring one team over another. Is it really possible that the stewards, race director and FIA are tired of Lewis winning and are trying to tilt the field in Max's favor?

EDIT: It appears they announced a decision as I was typing that. I'm glad they are being consistent, at least in this case

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
11/21/21 6:59 a.m.

The news release was a bit funny in offering all the explanation, justification and examples of past penalties.  Trying to pe-empt the keyboard warriors, I guess.  They probably do feel a bit bad about the deal.

I wonder whether the yellows were out, in, out again because Gasley was well off the racing line, and somebody who should have known better was trying to let the guys finish their last laps?  

Tough day for Max today, if the passing is as hard as they anticipate.

AaronT
AaronT Reader
11/21/21 7:25 a.m.
loosecannon said:

Bottas gets a 3 place grid penalty for passing a single waved yellow, so what happens to Max for passing a double yellow? We have yet to see but if he doesn't get a penalty then I think we have proof that the referees of this sport are favoring one team over another. Is it really possible that the stewards, race director and FIA are tired of Lewis winning and are trying to tilt the field in Max's favor?

EDIT: It appears they announced a decision as I was typing that. I'm glad they are being consistent, at least in this case

Max with a 5 place penalty.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
11/21/21 7:29 a.m.

Horner:  "There was a rogue Marshall that stuck his flag out."

Dude...  there was a car stopped on the front straight whether the light was on the dash or not.

AaronT
AaronT Reader
11/21/21 7:31 a.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

Horner:  "There was a rogue Marshall that stuck his flag out."

Dude...  there was a car stopped on the front straight whether the light was on the dash or not.

There's precedent from Baku though.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
11/21/21 7:33 a.m.

On another topic, every driver has talked about how much they enjoy this track.  I'm not sure it will race as well as it drives, if you know what I mean.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/21/21 7:45 a.m.

The great irony of the situation- by the time they got to the end of the lap, both Max and Valteri had to have known they were not going to move up.  So lifting would have not changed anything.  Oh, well.

I'm still thinking the system needs some work.  The on-off nature of the yellow was odd, and then when the car stopped on the front straight- why was there only one station waiving a flag?

BTW, why didn't Gasley enter the pit lane?  If he made the last corner, he should have been able to enter the pits....  Although, if he stopped there, it would have been the same, I guess.

HoserRacing
HoserRacing HalfDork
11/21/21 7:49 a.m.

Curious to see if Max makes it to the front without contact. Happy for Gasly, he may not realize he's probably better off at AT where he's number one and respected for his driving instead of in someone else's shadow. 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
11/21/21 8:13 a.m.

Passing seems quite available, compared to estimates.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/21/21 8:14 a.m.

I never thought I'd be rooting for Alonso, but it's a shame he didn't take more of a fight to Max. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/21/21 8:14 a.m.
HoserRacing said:

Curious to see if Max makes it to the front without contact. Happy for Gasly, he may not realize he's probably better off at AT where he's number one and respected for his driving instead of in someone else's shadow. 

Gasley ran wide to let Max pass.  Make up for the penalty.  And it turns out the penalty didn't matter much to Max, where it's killed Valteri's race.  Terrible start for him, again.  Mercedes needs him to catch up to Perez....

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
11/21/21 8:14 a.m.

Horner really said "a rogue marshall" is the reason for the penalty.  lol, that man is an absolute lunatic.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/21/horner-blames-rogue-marshal-after-verstappen-suffers-penalty-blow/

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/21/21 8:26 a.m.

We live in a post-truth world, Horner understands that well. Just keep throwing your version of the story out there and your fans will believe it.

Man, Max and Lewis are running a different race than everyone else. Mercedes thinks that Bottas is good for a podium but it's going to be a long slog to get there and I'm pretty sure Perez would have something to say about that.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/21/21 8:40 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm wondering if RBR brought them in too early.  Will Max have to do two?  If he does, he needs to gap Bottas quite a bit more.

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