alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/5/21 5:18 p.m.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to alfadriver :

You're right, i thought i remembered seeing Mazepin's car from Checo's onboard but it was an image after he spun around and knocked off his front wing on the wall. 

I just rewatched the accident from Nikki's car- and he could not see anything.  Even from high up view the camera has, all you could see is the Williams in front of him suddenly slow.  It happened so fast that I would have a tough time condemning Mazepin on that one, and I still don't think he should be in F1.

BrewCity20
BrewCity20 New Reader
12/5/21 5:29 p.m.

In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :

Hear Hear.

Masi lost control of this one and the teams ran all over him.

Benswen
Benswen Reader
12/5/21 5:31 p.m.
loosecannon said:

I'm happy that Lewis won but I feel he made more mistakes than usual. I was watching his onboard camera and saw Max slow in front of him and assumed Max broke, and don't know why Lewis pulled up right behind him. All I can think of is Lewis has a massive distrust of Max and was afraid of going for the gap. 

This is what I don't get.  Is Lewis really that scared of Max?  I would have expected Lewis to blow past Max without thinking twice, and thank his lucky stars that Max had an issue.  But maybe Lewis is honestly that worried about Max's driving, and doesn't trust that Max wouldn't take him out given the opportunity.

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
12/5/21 5:54 p.m.
adam525i
adam525i Dork
12/5/21 6:02 p.m.

Max showed us again his true colours whether Max fans can see that or not. His second restart will be applauded as brilliant but it was the classic Max move with only two outcomes, Max pulls it off or everyone crashes. His only defense seems to be brake late enough to be alongside with no regard for whether he makes the corner or not, twice that happened in this race (and obviously Brazil).

He was told after the second incident to "give the position back to Hamilton strategically" (1:56:18 in his onboard relpay if you have F1 TV plus) and that is what he is wanting to do, he wait's until later in the straight to get Hamilton to go by just before the next DRS detection point so he can have a chance to get right back by him on the following straight. When Hamilton doesn't go for the pass Max continues to slow, to me it sounds like the car is coasting down from 6 gear through 4 but once he gets into third the RPM drops suddenly and Lewis rear ends him followed by the him accelerating. I think he hit his brakes but only the telementary will tell so it will be interesting to see what people dig up as most of that stuff is available if you know how to find it. 

From Lewis's perspective it looks like he was lining up another pass attempt to go around the outside, Max starts to slow and moves off line to the outside and Lewis does not know what is going on. I can see why Lewis is cautious at this point, Max could be reacting to a yellow or something else that if Hamilton goes by full speed could be penalized for, he has not had the call until it is too late that Max is letting him by.

Finally Max is told to let him by again, which Max does and immediately repasses him forcing the stewards to finally give out the 5 second penalty. Obviously these penalties aren't enough as Max keeps doing the same things.

I was coming around to Max earlier in the season after being put off of him from his antics earlier in his career. He's probably the quickest driver just based on individual speed but he has shown again and again that his race craft is garbage. Everyone talks about how cool and collected he is and how he can talk on the radio through the most difficult sections of a track. That just tells me that the moves he is pulling aren't mistakes or pushing it too hard but calculated moves on purpose.

Frankly, it won't surprise me if we end up with a Schumacher '97 situation after next weeks race and I'll divide the blame for that between Max and the FIA for their inaction over the years with him.

Edit: he braked, what a POS.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/5/21 6:06 p.m.

In reply to adam525i :

The 5 sec penalty was for cutting turn 1 earlier in the race. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/5/21 6:08 p.m.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

Additional  10 second time penalty for Verstappen

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-verstappen-handed-further-10-second-penalty-for-lap-37-collision.7GGfMvAnRIGPtMQphh7zCd.html

That additional penalty doesn't impact anything. At least it just proves yet again what an immature and dirty driver he is. 

adam525i
adam525i Dork
12/5/21 6:11 p.m.
z31maniac said:

In reply to adam525i :

The 5 sec penalty was for cutting turn 1 earlier in the race. 

It was, he was given the chance to clear it on track by letting Lewis by the second time but when he repassed immediately then it was handed down.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
12/5/21 6:11 p.m.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:
alfadriver said:

WRT Bottas backing up the field for the double stack, Red BullE36 M3 got that back with the free pit stop for Max in the red flag.  So that went both ways. 

Backing up the field is against the rules. Changing tires in a red flag is not. 

Went back to look at it, and I'm not sure he actually did back up the field.  Just before the Schumacher crash there's a 3 second gap between Hamilton and Bottas (according to the on-screen graphic), then half a lap later when they come into the pits there's a 5 second gap (looking at time codes on the video between when the two cars go past a particular point on the track).  I don't know if the rule says something vague like "you can't drive unreasonably slowly" or if it sets objective time criteria, but 2 seconds doesn't seem that huge to me.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/5/21 6:18 p.m.
z31maniac said:
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

Additional  10 second time penalty for Verstappen

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-verstappen-handed-further-10-second-penalty-for-lap-37-collision.7GGfMvAnRIGPtMQphh7zCd.html

That additional penalty doesn't impact anything. At least it just proves yet again what an immature and dirty driver he is. 

What a gift for Red BullE36 M3 and max.  Brake check Hamilton into a crash, and then get a very meaningless penalty for it.  Which means he will just do it again.  That late of a review should have been a grid spot penalty for the next race.

Max barely gets any penalties for his stuff.  Let alone given a free stop for the red flag they should have put out in the first place.   

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/5/21 6:28 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

I'm assuming they didn't because they didn't want to be accused of "legislating" the championship for Lewis by giving him say, a 3-grid penalty next race. Even though in effect they are doing it for Max by letting him get away with his driving. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/5/21 6:31 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

If Max drives Lewis off the road out of the race, he wins.  And since he keeps getting away with it, the odds of it happening are really high.  They are really going to need to turn up the engines to 12 next weekend to lock out the front row and keep Valtteri as a body guard.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/5/21 6:39 p.m.

I have no idea, really, but I can easily picture the stewards pointing out Schumachers exclusion due to his Villneuve crash attempt.

Max got 2 penalty points, and if he does something particularly nasty next week, welll...

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
12/5/21 6:40 p.m.
alfadriver said:

Max barely gets any penalties for his stuff.  Let alone given a free stop for the red flag they should have put out in the first place.   

From what they said in the broadcast (punctured barrier) it sounds like they didn't know that they would need to replace it until they got someone out there to look at it, and they couldn't do that under green/local yellow.  So yeah, it sucks to have 2-3 laps of safety car and then get a red, but it's better to do that than start throwing reds in tons of cases where they aren't needed.  Red Bull gambled on staying out to gain track position and it worked out for them, that's fair enough.

I also wonder if we're going to see 1997 happening all over again next weekend.  Maybe Sky should start the broadcast coverage by playing MMMBop and the Spice Girls. :)

 

New York Nick
New York Nick HalfDork
12/5/21 6:52 p.m.

I know there is no  precedent for this but I would have liked to have seen a 1 point penalty for max in the championship points. That removes then possibility for him causing a crash to end the championship. It also doesn't give it to Lewis because it basically becomes a race to see who can win it all. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/5/21 7:03 p.m.

So the midfield battles seem pretty much over.

I can't see McLaren getting 40 points more than Ferrari at the last race.  Sure, it's mathematically possible, but with the WDC in the ballance, there's almost no chance that McLaren can even get 40 points.

Same goes for the 29 points separating Renault with Alpha Tauri.  

So it looks like the rest of the field is decided.  And the 28 points between RBR and Mercedes would mean it would require a RBR 1-2 and Merc to not finish.  Possible, and who knows what will happen with this ending.  But it would be really hard.

And the same can be said for the driver's standings outside of 1 and 2.  Perez can't pass Bottas.  The only close race left is 5-7 between LeClerc, Norris, and Sainz.  It will be interesting if Norris can bass LeClerc, and that would be a decent ending to the season for McLaren when you see how much they have lost points over the last 4 races.

SnowMongoose
SnowMongoose SuperDork
12/5/21 7:09 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Sadly at this point it feels like Lewis could intentionally wreck and trust that the stewards will penalize Max for it.  
Praising Lewis like he has never put his elbows out in F1  
Silverstone with Max, several times wrecking Albon... hardly a spotless record

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/5/21 7:24 p.m.

In reply to SnowMongoose :

Of those, though, the Silverstone issue with Max is the only one that could be argued to be something other than a mistake.  A 2.4G stab if the brake pedal with your opponents wing directly behind you seems a bit toxic.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
12/5/21 7:28 p.m.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

As a McLaren fan this race was particularly insulting to watch. Bottas holds up the whole berking field so Hamilton can have a free stop under safety car and Mercedes doesn't get a penalty? Hamilton straight up rear ends Verstappen and doesn't get a penalty? Max lets Hamilton by and still gets a penalty? The track is used despite not being done and was only signed off for safety 3 days ago? Mazespin REALLY rear ends someone and takes out half the damn field including Perez and gets no penalties?!? And how is DRS allowed on the last straight like that? 

Man I know the FIA and F1 play games, but this WWF levels of absurdity. RB and Mercedes are both playing dangerous games that even Ferrari of the oughts wouldn't dare try and neither Max nor Lewis deserve to be where they are. They both drive like idiots.

 The 2.4G stab on the brake pedal is how Max got hit.

Like ok, fair play if Max wants to try to get Lewis past him right before the DRS marker so he gets the DRS...  but Hamilton isn't obligated to pass him at that exact moment.  Max jumping on the brakes to force it is what caused the incident.

SnowMongoose
SnowMongoose SuperDork
12/5/21 7:35 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Yeah, Max should have given back that position at the point most advantageous for Lewis.  /s

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/5/21 7:36 p.m.
SnowMongoose said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Sadly at this point it feels like Lewis could intentionally wreck and trust that the stewards will penalize Max for it.  
Praising Lewis like he has never put his elbows out in F1  
Silverstone with Max, several times wrecking Albon... hardly a spotless record

IIRC, Max and Lewis were even at Silverstone when Max turned in on him.  So I'm still not convinced that it was Lewis' fault.  Lewis backed out to try to not get hit, but max turned enough to hit him.

Sure, Albon.  But Max has made much more massive lunges that ended with either of those cars off the track when he's next to Hamilton.  Right now, the onus is on Max to be clean, since he's not been that for quite a few races now.   But if Lewis wanted to hit Max, he's had plenty of opportunities the last few weeks.  But he's kept it clean.

None the less, if what you say happens, it's been really because how Max has driven over the last few races.  

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/5/21 7:39 p.m.
SnowMongoose said:

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Yeah, Max should have given back that position at the point most advantageous for Lewis.  /s

Where he did give it back, and then passed him right back or used the next DRS has always not been allowed.  Those were set up to not give the spot back at all.  Max earned a lot more penalties than he was given, as I saw it.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
12/5/21 7:42 p.m.
alfadriver said:
SnowMongoose said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Sadly at this point it feels like Lewis could intentionally wreck and trust that the stewards will penalize Max for it.  
Praising Lewis like he has never put his elbows out in F1  
Silverstone with Max, several times wrecking Albon... hardly a spotless record

IIRC, Max and Lewis were even at Silverstone when Max turned in on him.  So I'm still not convinced that it was Lewis' fault.  Lewis backed out to try to not get hit, but max turned enough to hit him.

Sure, Albon.  But Max has made much more massive lunges that ended with either of those cars off the track when he's next to Hamilton.  Right now, the onus is on Max to be clean, since he's not been that for quite a few races now.   But if Lewis wanted to hit Max, he's had plenty of opportunities the last few weeks.  But he's kept it clean.

I've watched that bit at Silverstone over and over again and my personal opinion is that Lewis tried to carry too much speed and couldn't make his apex, but he was only about a half a car width off the curbing so it wasn't like he needed to drive all the way off the track to get his car under control.  Max gave him a small amount of extra space, but nowhere near enough.

I'm personally inclined to call that a racing incident with Lewis primarily at fault, but it was fully within Max's power to avoid being hit.  I think Max was so focused on carrying speed down the next straight that the thought that he should pay any amount of attention to the car next to him just never occurred to him.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/5/21 8:47 p.m.
SnowMongoose said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

Sadly at this point it feels like Lewis could intentionally wreck and trust that the stewards will penalize Max for it.  
Praising Lewis like he has never put his elbows out in F1  
Silverstone with Max, several times wrecking Albon... hardly a spotless record

Nope, if neither finish Max still wins the Championship because he has 9 wins to 8 from Lewis.

S there is no reason for Lewis to wreck Max, but there could be an excuse of a "mistake" from Max that happens to take out Lewis.

I still think the brake check and weaving while trying to give up the position should been given a real penalty.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr PowerDork
12/5/21 9:17 p.m.

What a E36 M3 show.

 

Why the he'll did mercedes pit both drivers on the first safety car?  It seemed a red flag was a strong possibility.  Why not split the strategy at least?

 

When you are 1st and setting fast laps, with your team mate behind, Why pit?

 

I am NOT a Max fan....  however, I'm not sure what that was all about.

 

Still not sure what the he'll happened there with Lewis hitting max.  It wasn't like Lewis didn't hit his marks in a brake zone.  It was like max just way overslowed and caused the incident.  However, there was room to the left, so....? 

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