Formula One - 2018

Miami F1 Race in 2019 ???  Someone is seriously smoking crack if they think proper planning could be in place or facilities could be built before 2019.

Keith Tanner said:

Adrian_Thompson said:

Keith Tanner said:

The reason Indy can get it "right" is the spec body. In F1, you've got a mass of engineers optimizing every surface on the car so you're going to get upper body downforce whether you like it or not. Of course, a spec body takes a lot of technical interest out of the sport.

F1 could do it easily as well.  Maximum of X element wings.  Maximum of Ymm^2 wing area.  No winglets, simplified end plates, exit vents must point only backwards for Zmm's etc.  Not hard and how I hope they will go in the future.  It could also help eliminate the need for DRS and possibly prevent the Mad MAx Honey Badger incident from last weekend.

The rules are already very precise on wing area, end plates, even the minimum radius of body lines. You say "not hard", but then you have hundreds of the best aerodynamicists in the business looking for just one more pound of downforce - and they'll get it.

Isn't the problem with relying on underbody aero extreme pitch sensitivity? Ask Mark Webber about that. It's interesting to note that the road course bodywork for Indycars uses much more complex multi-element front wings and big rear wings than the superspeedway configuration - is this so they can get more of their downforce from the wings due to the less consistent surface and kerbs than an oval?

You are right, but the point I'm making (and i think Adrian is, too) is that a ground effects centric downforce plan is more robust to following cars instead of front and rear wing based one.  So you can drastically reduce the front and rear wing influence, and get the same downforce- all the while making it easier to follow closely behind.  With that many engineers, you can REALLY make the front and rear wings small, and let them have fun under the car.

Yes, you can match current downforce numbers off the floor. But what does that do the ride height sensitivity and downforce consistency? F1 has been down the ground effects path before, it was banned. What's changed?

ncjay said:

Miami F1 Race in 2019 ???  Someone is seriously smoking crack if they think proper planning could be in place or facilities could be built before 2019.

In the heart of hurricane season, no less.  

Keith Tanner said:

Yes, you can match current downforce numbers off the floor. But what does that do the ride height sensitivity and downforce consistency? F1 has been down the ground effects path before, it was banned. What's changed?

When I see Indycars vs F1 cars, I don't see the same sensitivity to pitch that F1 cars have- and I think this is more about the rear diffuser vs. the wings.  Ground effects have a different interaction with the ground- and seeing Indycars drive over both super smooth and horribly bumpy tracks- one can say that the ride height issues have been solved in the ~40 years of development of those tunnels.  

I don't really know why F1 banned ground effects, other than the idea that they were getting too fast too quickly.  Remember there were some significant deaths at the start of the 80's, so speed was an issue.  It was pretty easy to slow the cars down by making them only rely on wings- which at that time were only ~15 year old development, and no CAD capabilities to design them.  

I still see that it would be really easy to change to a far more ground effects centric system, keeping the cars just as fast, and have very small wings/ wakes.  On top of that, the space above the tunnels add some significant width to the car next to the driver- good for safety and good for packaging stuff.

But I do see that I'm being Don Quixote on this- it's unlikely that F1 will see the obvious solution to the passing issues.  Which should also make the cars a lot cheaper to make (as the hyper complex wings would not be around).  

Keith Tanner said:

Yes, you can match current downforce numbers off the floor. But what does that do the ride height sensitivity and downforce consistency? F1 has been down the ground effects path before, it was banned. What's changed?

A lot has changed.  Initially when F1 used underbody it was in conjunction with sliding skirts which lead to a) essentially zero suspension travel meaning it was massively punishing to the drivers and b) when the seal was lost you lost all your downforce and suddenly had a manned but unguided missile heading straight to the scene of the accident.  F1 came down on ground effect really hard after that and went to flat bottom early.  Sports cars and Indy cars kept venturi underbody much much longer and did have pitch sensitivity issues as well as changing center of pressure problems that lead to a number of spectacular accidents.  The understanding of aerodynamics as damper technology has come a long way since then.  Indy car can manage it with much higher top speeds than F1 on Super speedways and bumpy street circuits that F1 would never consider driving on.  F1 drivers say their street circuits are bumpy.  they'd have a fit if they saw Long Beach or especially Belle Isle. 

But Indy cars go to a more bewinged body for those bumpy street circuits. Since ground effects rely on the ground, I really think the surface is a major factor. As long as every F1 race involves curbs and crests, that varying ride height has to be a factor. It's bad enough when someone gets too close to the car in front and loses all downforce, what about when someone gets a little too rowdy with the curbs and loses it all in a high speed corner? 

LMPs have cutouts in the bodywork designed to deal with the flight problems, that's why you can see most of the top of the tire. So those accidents weren't stopped so much by fancy dampers or CFD.

I'd love to talk to a real aerodynamicist about this. It can't be as simple as "wings are bad". 

alfadriver said:

I don't really know why F1 banned ground effects, other than the idea that they were getting too fast too quickly.  Remember there were some significant deaths at the start of the 80's, so speed was an issue.  It was pretty easy to slow the cars down by making them only rely on wings- which at that time were only ~15 year old development, and no CAD capabilities to design them.  

I think it would be hard to make the case that excessive speed was the determining factor in those early 80's deaths.

For a better understanding of F1 aero history, take a look at this link: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/retro-f1-tech-the-ground-effect-era-873918/

Anyone else get the email from Formula 1 pushing their new live stream offering F1 TV Pro?  For the low-low price of $4.29 per race, you get to listen to in-exhaust microphones, free selection of onboard cameras and ability to listen to any team radio transmission.  

I dunno.  4.29 a race is only $70 for the remainder of the season.  But, I'm cheap, and already pay for Motor Trend on Demand.   I feel like this is overpriced, especially since I'm already paying for access to the ESPN app via my cable subscription.  

Thoughts?  Is this the new normal?

It's normal if you don't have a cable subscription. My options at the moment are post-race torrents and that's it. Now F1 has given me an alternative so I'll probably take it.

Since you've already paid and have other access, use it. If the alternative gives you features you want, then sign up and pay for it. You don't HAVE to sign up for F1 TV Pro, but now you have options you didn't before.

Can't say that it's hard to see Ferrari throw away a podium and possibly a second place there.

Hamilton had an amazing race- just walked away from the field, and managed a very long stint on the medium tires.

Both sides of the coin for Haas, darn it.  Grosean should have done better, on the other hand, Magnusson showed that Haas has a very good car- solidly the best of the rest.  It seems very possible for Haas to finish 4th in the constructors.

And Sauber looks a lot better than they should, which is nice.

Along with Ferrari's bad call, McLaren may jave blown it with puttin super softs on Alonso in Q2. His tires never worked today. He could have come in 6th instead of 8th.

I thought the Spanish GP was a snoozer.  Just my opinion.

I would expect that the Aero engineers are designing shapes that purposely make the trailing air as dirty as possible.

Limiting the competitions ability is the similar to improving your own.

Boring race.

Grosjean's incident wasn't entirely his fault in my opinion.  I have spun a racecar because the person in front of me checked up more than I thought they would while the car was fully "loaded".  Same thing...

However, i went both feet in and didn't spin back into the path of oncoming cars...

Vettel has spent the entire time since the race complaining about....... everything.

Surprised Ferrari missed the opportunity for more crying munchkin PR as Kimi's car died...  Interesting race - it was great to see Massa enjoying himself so much as a spectator.

Kimi's reliability issues, while Vettel seems to have none, reminds me of the Rubens v Michael era.

When Kimi signed with Ferrari he was hurt, he was coming back from a back injury from a rally crash. 

Didn't he have surgery right after signing on with Ferrari? http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12474/9031461/ferrari-knew-of-kimi-raikkonens-back-injury-and-say-it-wont-be-a-problem-for-2014

So I am guessing Kimi signed on as a second string driver to take over if Seb got hurt or to help Seb win.

Everyone looks at that situation as though Kimi was hired as a first string driver.

After a couple of seasons now it's pretty obvious what is happening.

Joe writes,

Scuderia Ferrari has re-signed Kimi Raikkonen for 2018 and while the Finn’s fans think this is just peachy, others have concluded that this reveals a lot about how Ferrari thinks and works. What it tells us most of all is that Ferrari wanted to keep Sebastian Vettel happy. It took a few days after the Raikkonen announcement but then came confirmation that Vettel would be staying on. In other words, the first announcement triggered the second. What Vettel wanted – and has got – is to have a team-mate who does not give him too much trouble, just as his hero Michael Schumacher did in the old days, when Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello and Felipe Massa were all expected to play second fiddle to the number one violinist. Vettel has shown in the past that he gets a bit wobbly when he is under pressure (as did Schumacher) and that it is best for him to know that he can beat his team-mate, or that the team-mate will do what the team tells him to do, as Raikkonen has shown himself willing to do. Being a compliant number two driver can be a lucrative career move for a driver who is past his best or not quite there. From Vettel’s point of view, it is best to have Kimi than an aggressive young lion, who wants to get to the top of the F1 tree.

I am a fan of the IceMan and would very much enjoy seeing Ferrari turn him loose on Hamilton and Botas. 

But Seb can milk a set of tires farther than any other driver it seems (when he's not running into Hamilton).

Kimi is a sort of "go for broke" driver and is sort of hard on equipment and probably difficult for engineers to deal with.

Seb is a cry baby and prone to tantrums, but brings the car home in one piece mostly, easier for the team to deal with.

I can't say Kimi is a has been or a second stringer, those guys don't get on the podium as often as Kimi has. So he is doing well for Ferrari and for Kimi. I hope he is resigned in 2019.

Seb would not be happy with Ricardo or Max as a team mate, but if either of them figures out how to take care of equipment like Vettle they could write their own ticket.

What I took away from the Spain race was in the beginning there was no grip, but look how many times the track record was broken! So the grip must have been there and tire strategy was paramount.

markwemple said:

Kimi's reliability issues, while Vettel seems to have none, reminds me of the Rubens v Michael era.

Or Webber v Seb. Maybe Vettel is sabotaging cars!

I agree that Sebastian does seem to have trouble with a sporty teammate. He struggled pretty badly in the first hybrid year as Danny adapted to the cars immediately, and I don't think he enjoyed it much. He's much happier these days, which may be due to a more compliant teammate than he ever had in Mark or Danny.

Not a fun race to watch. Other than Grosjean being unwilling to take his foot off the gas and taking out himself and two innocent bystanders then in the post race interview taking none of the blame what so ever. Not even a hint of an apology.  Hamilton came to play this race and maybe he is over whatever head problems he has been going through.

Bottas is the most boring driver on the grid. A perfect number 2 that doesn't really put up much of a fight and seems content with just driving around the track in the best car, but seems to lack any type of killer instinct.

I always like Monaco, but it also is typically not that interesting of a race other than the scenery/atmosphere and watching them make the transitions through the swimming pool section which it always fun to watch.

That Grosjean spin seemed like a Scott Speed move.  Unwise.

T.J. said:

I always like Monaco, but it also is typically not that interesting of a race other than the scenery/atmosphere and watching them make the transitions through the swimming pool section which it always fun to watch.

Best part of Monaco is the safety car driver. The track is so slow he really, really has to hustle that street car around so the F1 cars don't overheat. It's great fun to watch, especially through those transitions.

I think Grosjean had too much rear brake for the cold tires which is why the car stepped out, then he got to the power too late or smashed the throttle in frustration. By his reaction afterwards I'm guessing he smashed the throttle in frustration which he can't admit to. The engineers know from the telemetry. This will go down on his permanent record...

He is going to have to finish a lot of races with all 4 wheels still on his car before this is forgotten. In his defense, the car in front of him lost front grip and pushed out in front of him, he reacted to that by braking and turning inside to avoid the other car which loosened his car up. Then the front car recovered and blocked his move to the inside causing him to brake more and loose control. You can see this from the in car video and the video from the McLaren following. Grosjean's car steps out once then wobbles and then really steps out. He had control until the second brake application. And no doubt smashing the throttle was not the thing to do as there was runoff area and grip there as shown by the McLaren following 

His only possible salvation with the team would be if the engineers instructed him to bias the brakes so much to the rear for the start. (I don't recall seeing the fronts lock verified) (which would explain possible frustration.) Or they have some mechanical issue that is causing a loss of rear grip (not the first time). Otherwise it's all on him (not just smashing the throttle).

https://thejudge13.com/2018/05/14/new-trackside-footage-found-of-grosjean-crash/ watch the incar from Grosjean and later from the McLaren.

I was interested by the difference in speed of team mates.  Lewis was way faster than Bottas, Seb way faster than Kimi, Max way faster than Danny Ric.  May have had more to do with the flow of traffic and inability to complete a pass on that track, but it seemed quite apparent.