Williams, McLaren, and Renault aren't in favor fo the sale? But Sauber, Toro Rosso, and HAAS, are in favor of the sale, and would directly benefit from them not finishing the season. Did I miss something?
Williams, McLaren, and Renault aren't in favor fo the sale? But Sauber, Toro Rosso, and HAAS, are in favor of the sale, and would directly benefit from them not finishing the season. Did I miss something?
trigun7469 said:Williams, McLaren, and Renault aren't in favor fo the sale? But Sauber, Toro Rosso, and HAAS, are in favor of the sale, and would directly benefit from them not finishing the season. Did I miss something?
Yes. Williams, McLaren, and Renault are afraid of Force India becoming Mercedes Junior. Sauber and HAAS are Ferrari Junior and Toro Rosso is Red Bull Junior.
Javelin said:trigun7469 said:Williams, McLaren, and Renault aren't in favor fo the sale? But Sauber, Toro Rosso, and HAAS, are in favor of the sale, and would directly benefit from them not finishing the season. Did I miss something?
Yes. Williams, McLaren, and Renault are afraid of Force India becoming Mercedes Junior. Sauber and HAAS are Ferrari Junior and Toro Rosso is Red Bull Junior.
Sour grapes.
I think it's a really poor decision for the overall health of the sport. It would be a shame to see FI end up leaving the grid because of something like this.
trigun7469 said:Williams, McLaren, and Renault aren't in favor fo the sale? But Sauber, Toro Rosso, and HAAS, are in favor of the sale, and would directly benefit from them not finishing the season. Did I miss something?
Here's a good article that explains what is going on https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/45026461
It's not that they are against the sale, but want to make sure that they don't become a Mercedes B team- where they vote 100% with Mercedes and get out of the way of their car. Oh, and help Mercedes be faster.
It's an interesting article- we know that Lawrence Stroll is interested in buying the team, but for other interested parties- you'll see a combination of Michael Andretti and Pieter Rossi (who is Alex's dad). That would be an interesting team owner. Another American group is also interested in getting them. And energy drink maker Rich Energy is still interested in getting them- they made an offer on Friday, right at the same time Perez helped get the team into receivership.
Yes I think the initial headlines are clickbait. Just like all the Bottas "hurt" but Wolf links.
I think Force India will have another life. I was hoping for a really big team and unassociated investors/advertisers to jump in. While they hate on the HAAS model it is the key to allowing new teams to enter the series without major issues.
I hope they get it worked out quickly.
In reply to Advan046 :
The Haas issue is a sticky problem here. The way Haas tells it, they just buy the legal parts from Ferrari, and that influences the design to make it act and look much like the Ferrari. The way the rest of teams tell it, they are another Ferrari B team that votes along with Ferrari and lets Ferrari drivers past easier.
And, so far, the Haas model is clearly working really well. Ignoring the fact that Williams, McLaren, and Renault are struggling, Haas is showing some decent pace relative to the top 3. Now that can very well be that the three big teams are just sucking so bad this year that it makes Haas and Sauber look that much better. But it's clearly a sticking point.
I'm with you, that IMHO, Haas is a great model to build a team around, as it uses the money a lot wiser than doing it all yourself.
What really needs to happen is that Haas shows a little more independence, regardless of who is making the parts. That would ease some of the pain and angst that is holding up FI sale.
I see this as incredibly short sighted by the three struggling legacy teams of Renault, Williams and McLaren. This is what's wrong with F1. These teams are happy to threaten the already tenuous strength of F1 to protect themselves while ignoring that the Titanic is inches away from a very large iceberg. To me 20 cars on the grid isn't really enough. The need at least 24 and preferably 26. So what if they become a Merc B team, that could still happen in a myriad of other ways as has been seen by Hass, Minardi and Sauber. F1 needs eyes on the product and a decent depth of teams through the field to give drivers a shot of making it to F1 and proving themselves in lower teams. You used to get 3-4-5 new drivers in F1 every year, now you are lucky if you get two new drivers. Part of that is good in that drivers aren't getting injured and killed like they used too, but part of it is just not enough seats and drivers staying long past their sell by date (sorry Kimi, I'm looking at you)
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
If the three teams were smart, they would aid in making a Haas model be possible for someone else. Since the rules mean you can buy a Merc, Renault, Honda, or Ferrari engine- as they ALL have to be available, then you should be to get that, and get the suspension bits from one of the big teams. Williams already supplies electronic stuff to a lot of racing programs.
Any one of them can step up and make chassis and suspension that they can sell to anyone willing. The only bits that a team is required to DIY, or be proprietary, is what you see- the body work/ aero.
And I thought the rules dictated that many of the interface points for each of the engine have to be common- so you can change from a Merc to a Honda without changing the chassis. Of course, there are a TON of other side effects, but in theory, you could get a McLaren chassis, bolt a Ferrari powertrain, get a Williams hybrid system, and make your own body, and start racing. Which is as close as we are going to get to the 70's Garageista era, ever.
But I do understand the 3 teams fear of Mercedes and Ferrari having so many votes that they drive the bus.
In reply to alfadriver :
The big teams have always held sway. Remember the FOCA FISA wars of the early 80's. Williams have long regaled against common parts and they scuppered the old ProDrive entry into F1 claiming it was a customer car even though it was based on the now successful HAAS/Ferrari model. They all need to stop rearranging the deckchairs and concentrate on missing the iceberg.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
I remember, and I also remember Ferrari constantly threatening to leave. I also remember when McLaren and Williams were the big teams, as was Renault. So soon they forget.
Even more sad is how Williams started as a garageista, and then really put the clamps down on buying stuff. Which is really odd.
Still, it's not a bad thing to understand their fear, even if it's kind of irrational. Renault still has some kind of an excuse that they are digging their way out of the Lotus made hole. McLaren and Williams dug their own holes. And are still digging in many ways.
Adrian_Thompson said:......... but part of it is just not enough seats and drivers staying long past their sell by date (sorry Kimi, I'm looking at you)
Really? I don't understand the Kimi hate. He is what, third in the points with 8 podiums on the year (only Hamilton has more podiums) and that is past his sell by date? How many times has he moved over for Vettel this year or had his team give him a stupid strategy to help his teammate or hurt Mercedes?
Rusnak_322 said:Really? I don't understand the Kimi hate. He is what, third in the points with 8 podiums on the year (only Hamilton has more podiums) and that is past his sell by date? How many times has he moved over for Vettel this year or had his team give him a stupid strategy to help his teammate or hurt Mercedes?
I don't think Adrian "hates" Kimi, but I do disagree with his point. If one of these young guns wants to take his seat, they need to prove they can beat him, regardless of his age.
I don't hate Kimi. I, like most other enthusiasts, love him. He's driving well this year and in the traditional Ferrari way he's being E36 M3 on by the team strategy to help out Seb. No doubt he's still very fast, but I just don't see the hunger of younger and potentially faster drivers like Charles Leclerc. Kimi has not made up a single place in the opening lap of a GP this year, and that's simply not good enough any more. He's just a touch too conservative, a touch not aggressive enough on passing, a touch too easy on opponents when they are challenging. Yes he's still better than some of the younger pay drivers on the grid, but he's not good enough for one of the top seats on the grid. I love they guy, but he's past his sell by date for the F1 grid. I"d rather see him transfer to a different series, WRC, WEC or Indy car than sink down the F1 grid.
racerfink said:
Well, that's unexpected. Renault must have made him some big promises, or he really doesn't like the prospect of Honda engines at Red Bull.
So who gets his seat? Gasly or Sainz?
Adrian, what's the deal with this William Storey guy and Rich Energy.
If the comments on the YouTube video with Peter Windsor are to be believed, Rich Energy does $1 million per year in sales, but somehow has $30 million to put up for sponsorship and are trying to buy the Force India team?
In hindsight, maybe this isn't a shock. He has been needing a contract for a long time. I can certainly see the nervousness around Honda, and the Renault has been reliable in everything except the Red Bull, it seems. Maybe he had a Renault relationship somewhere, kinda like Lewis with Mercedes when he left Maclaren.
Or maybe Renault has a bigger cheque writing pen.
In reply to Tom_Spangler :
I hope Sainz moves up as he's served his time, but he and Mad Max hated each other when they were both at Torro Rosso so maybe it will be Gasly. If it is Gasly it will probably mean Hartly survives at Torro Rosso. If it is Gasly where does poor Sainz go, back to Torro Rosso? I'm sure Nico Hulk will be staying at Renault to partner Danny Ric, so poor Sainz, who is someone who's worked hard and delivered, could be out of a drive.
I wonder if Danny Ric's decision was as much about them over paying for Mad Max CrashStappen as it was over the coming Honda boat anchors weighing down the back of Adrian Newey's marvelous machines? Pink Cow were so keen to snap up CrashStappen despite the fact the Danny had him handily beaten last year and he's still on track to beat him again in the points this year, that they forgot their stronger driver. I think that as much as the Honda's lack of performance could be it.
While the Red Bull's are certainly amazing cars and machines, I just can't respect how Christian Horner and Helmut Marko love to throw their partners under the bus. The way they have treated Renault over the last four years is disgraceful and it was the reason they are now stuck with Honda as Neither Mercedes or Ferrari wanted to sell engines to a bunch of bad mouthing, not team playing babies who's rattle is constantly on the edge of being thrown from the pram.
I really hope that Renault continue to improve . Since buying back the smoking wreck of their once proud team from LOTUS (Truly living up to it's moniker of Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious as a team) they've constantly improve from 9th in the constructors championship in 2016, to 6th last year and they are now lying 4th safely ahead of HASS, but miles behind Redbull. With RB getting boat anchors next year I see a really good chance for Renault to be the third best team on the grid, much as as RB are today. I don't know if they will be able to challenge for wins next year, but unless Honda finally get it right I see Renault beating them.
P.S. I would have rather see him go to Ferrari for a real shot at the title, but then I'd have had to root for Ferrari so this is possibly the better outcome!
Ricciardo to Renault popped in my head a week or so ago!
MB is off the table because of some slight insult he made in jest. Ferrari won't let Vettel be tested by him. So really he had no other choices but Renault vs RB to get the WDC.
I think if Renault was able to show him that they intent to be a MB level of factory effort then it would be an easy choice. With that support structure they will probably leapfrog RB and join the other two OEM road car factory supported teams. Renault can pull out the cash to build a serious factory and develop at a good pace. It is just like Hulk's dream to race for a factory supported team. Hard to resist the lure of that potential.
On the RB side, I think about the reality that Adrian Newey will retire eventually. And if you really think about it, what/who do they fall back on to maintain after that? Even if 2019 Honda has only a 1 KW deficit to the MB engine, if Newey left the end of this season, I think RB would still be fourth or lower in the championship.
Adrian_Thompson said:P.S. I would have rather see him go to Ferrari for a real shot at the title, but then I'd have had to root for Ferrari so this is possibly the better outcome!
Ha ha YES! I would be in such a quandary if Hamilton and Ricciardo drove for Ferrari in 2021. It would just hurt.
Tom_Spangler said:racerfink said:Well, that's unexpected. Renault must have made him some big promises, or he really doesn't like the prospect of Honda engines at Red Bull.
So who gets his seat? Gasly or Sainz?
I think you have to give it to Sainz, b ecause you wouldn't put Sainz back in at Toro Rosso. Let Gasly stay in the B team. Hartley hasn't had the best luck, but I think they ought to keep this year's pair and let them mature. They jump to conclusions too quickly at TR and the Honda engine isn't helping things, but it wouldn't surprise me if they dumped Hartley at the end of the season.
Danny Ric to Renault is so awesome! I dislike the RB team and love Hulk, so having him and the Ozzie on the same team is awesome, especially because it's a full factory team that's really going for it. Next season will be fun with them!
I think Sainz should get the RB set but it won't surprise me if they make a run for someone a little more veteran to help keep cooling Mad Max down. Raikonen is about done with Ferrari, he doesn't like always playing blocker. Same thing with Bottas, that guy has to be fuming at Mercedes!
Ocon has promise to move up, Stroll is nothing but a pile of money and Sirotkin is even worse. It's sad that the Kubica's and Kobayashi's of the world can't get F1 seats but those guys can because of Daddy money.
Let me remind everyone that Lewis won a Championship then went to Mercedes and everyone thought he was crazy because Mercedes did not have a fast car. At first it seemed like a bad decision but he bounced back. I predict Gasly is going to Red Bull and Sainz should go to Williams because I'm 100% positive that he is 1 to 1.5 seconds quicker than Sirotkin or Stroll and that would make a big difference to that team
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