loosecannon
loosecannon Dork
11/11/18 10:50 p.m.

Exciting race. I couldn't believe the pace of the Red Bulls and was even more amazed when I saw that Ocon hit Max. Max has the raw speed, no doubt, but he is still making mistakes and even though he has gotten better as the season has gone on, his clash with Ocon shows that he is still making them. I think that even if the RB has more pace than the Mercedes next year, Lewis's wisdom is going to put more points on the board than Max will. 

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
11/12/18 6:15 a.m.

It really looks to me that Max turned in and hit Ocon. Max got half a car length ahead and assumed Ocon would yield. Max got a taste of his own medicine and threw the victory away then acted like a brat about it. Not impressed. 

trigun7469
trigun7469 SuperDork
11/12/18 8:14 a.m.

Image result for Ocon and max gif

 

Max is still young, we all know the RBR chassis is going to be phenomenal but in the modern era not sure if Honda can keep up. I am wondering if Ferrari and Mercedes are already looking at 2019.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
11/12/18 8:47 a.m.

In reply to trigun7469 :

They’ve been looking at 2019 all year. As soon as the rules were finalized, they all had to change the aero concepts for the cars, and do CFD 24/7 to find the losses. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/12/18 9:43 a.m.

Max will win (more) races with a better power unit, but he doesn't have the ability to take the long game into account that he will need to win championships. This past weekend was a great example. Hamilton knows not to put himself in a situation where something like the Ocon crash could happen. To win the race, sometimes you don't have to win every corner.  This is hopefully the sort of thing that Max would have learned by competing in the lower classes before graduating to F1, but of course that never happened so he's having to figure it out on a very big stage. It's telling that when he failed to crash in Austin, his team congratulated him on a "mature" drive over the radio. Can you imagine Mercedes having to say that to Hamilton, or Ferrari to Kimi, or even Red Bull to Danny? Maybe to Vettel ;)

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/12/18 10:45 a.m.

For those who thought the level of emotion back at the Mercedes factory was remarkably high after winning the Constructor's again, this puts a bit of perspective on it. They were working hard to bring Hamilton's car home without a massive failure, so it was a really tense race with big consequences.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.hamilton-brazil-engine-failure-was-imminent-mercedes.1KfPixnFSkaaCq4KE8YekU.html

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/12/18 11:08 a.m.
rob_lewis said:
Keith Tanner said:
rob_lewis said:
Keith Tanner said:

This year, though, a friend is racing in the F4 support race. Everyone cheer on Sabre Cook, folks, she's quick, smart and trying to work her way up the ladder. She may also be the only woman on track all weekend.

Sabre is cool and very talented.  Saw here many times at national kart races.

-Rob

Followup on Sabre: she crashed a little bit in quali so she ended up at the back of the grid. She then proceeded to pass 25 cars over the course of the two F4 sprint races and won the "hard charger" award for passing more cars than anyone else.

Better yet, she's also a freshly minted engineer - and she won the Infiniti Engineering Academy competition last weekend, which means she'll be working for the Renault F1 team for six months. That's awesome.

Fan. Damn. Tastic!!! 

I've got a senior about to graduate and pursue his ME, so I need to do some research on the Infiniti Engineering Academy....

-Rob

A little more on what Sabre won: https://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/infiniti-renault-f1-get-technical-boost-young-us-engineering-talent

Did anyone else cheer when Kimi blasted past Vettel near the start of the race? No hesitation, just blam as soon as Vettel made a small error. Someone was not thinking "I'm number two!".

jharry3
jharry3 Reader
11/12/18 11:22 a.m.

Its nice to see Kimi unleashed.

Another issue is the lapped drivers.   Max can be a thoughtless prick but I have been thinking for a while that drivers who have been lapped for multiple laps should have to retire.    This guy was going to defy death to un-lap himself?

  I don't know the number. Somewhere between 5 and 10.  Maybe the rule is only for the last 25% of the race.  

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/12/18 11:29 a.m.

Thing is, while Ocon was not racing for the lead of the race he's still racing other people. He was arguably faster than Max at that point. It's always a problem when the front runners come through backmarkers that are having their own battle - it's easy to forget that the race isn't just about the guys fighting for the podium.  

The top six cars can lap the entire field pretty handily these days. If we make the lapped cars go home, we would have had 8 finishers in Austin.  6 in Canada. That doesn't sound like much fun to watch.

racerdave600
racerdave600 UltraDork
11/12/18 12:47 p.m.
T.J. said:

It really looks to me that Max turned in and hit Ocon. Max got half a car length ahead and assumed Ocon would yield. Max got a taste of his own medicine and threw the victory away then acted like a brat about it. Not impressed. 

Technically I would say Ocon is to blame, but to me, I would lay it on Max.  As Hamilton said, he had more to lose.  Just let him go at that point, there was no reason to be so aggressive on turn in when he was along side.  Max has a long way to go before he can win a championship I think, but sadly, he has the raw speed.  Personally I think Max is the Kyle Busch of F1, and i mean that in a bad way.  

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
11/12/18 7:15 p.m.

The moments of brilliance that Max exhibits are are truly spell binding......it's a shame that perhaps his ego has blinded him to the rudimentary aspects of competing at this level.....his performance here last year or was it the year before in the rain was truly a spectacle....    

codrus
codrus UltraDork
11/12/18 7:18 p.m.
759NRNG said:

The moments of brilliance that Max exhibits are are truly spell binding......it's a shame that perhaps his ego has blinded him to the rudimentary aspects of competing at this level.....his performance here last year or was it the year before in the rain was truly a spectacle....    

 

I don't think it's ego, it's just that he's young.  Yes, he's been around F1 for 4 years now, but he started as a teenager so he's still only 21.  Lots of testosterone and other red mist floating around. :)

 

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
11/12/18 8:14 p.m.
codrus said:
759NRNG said:

The moments of brilliance that Max exhibits are are truly spell binding......it's a shame that perhaps his ego has blinded him to the rudimentary aspects of competing at this level.....his performance here last year or was it the year before in the rain was truly a spectacle....    

 

I don't think it's ego, it's just that he's young.  Yes, he's been around F1 for 4 years now, but he started as a teenager so he's still only 21.  Lots of testosterone and other red mist floating around. :)

 

I agree. He certainly has some amazing talent. He's improved a lot over this season, in terms of maturity and being strategic, but he still las a way to go on those fronts.

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
11/12/18 8:33 p.m.

MaxV is this close.....who in his inner circle could talk 'sense' to make him focus on the 'finner' points....his father???

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
11/13/18 12:01 a.m.

Fantastic race. Just seeing the top places racing hard all the way to the end was cool. All the way through, I was uncertain of who would win. RB went by the MBs too easy. The Hamilton engine issue revealed later cleared my confusion. 

Near the end, I thought Hamilton's tires would fall off and all four would converge in a drs fueled back and forth. Max was probably so mad he would have take Hamilton out with a big dive bomb pass over the grass. 

In my years of racing I always understood that the lead car had the responsibility to pass cleanly. Assuming they were faster. A lapped car has just as much right to pass a leader if the leader is cruising. Heck in many races if you are managing tires or brakes you let the hard charger behind you go even for position. Max keeps getting a pass because of his age. He is now older or as old as the other driver's first seasons. His shoving Ocon is assault. Surprised the Brazilian authorities did just arrest his sorry but. He probably needs that shock. A couple nights in a Brazilian jail. 

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
11/13/18 8:18 a.m.
Yes, Ocon was at fault for the incident on track. Not for passing, or trying to pass Max, but for screwing it up. He deserved and got a 10 second stop and go. The last penalty I recall that severe was when Ro Gro got a one race ban for his stupid turn one incident at Spa. I have no issue with his penalty. Having said that, he was entitled to pass Max, and I would say was obliged too. He was on fresh SS and was racing other people for position, even though they were on different strategies. Fresh SS's Vs MAx's worn softs, Ocon was bound to be faster. Max had no need other than immaturity and anger issues to even try and defend. They were at totally different points in the race strategy and not racing each other. Ocon needed to make hay while the sun was shining on his new tires. LCH, Kimi, the Honey Badger and even Seb would have just let Ocon go. People call Lewis and Merc lucky. I think they make their own luck as demonstrated in the cool down room. Max would do well to listen to the advice of only the third five time world champion.


Max has talent, no doubt. Absolute top line A++ talent in the LCH, MS, Prost, Clark, Fangio etc. league. I want to like him, I'm trying hard to like him, but he's making it very very hard to support him. He should be the talent that spends the next decade chasing down LCH and MS's achievement. But I fear he's going to throw away to many races with stupid **** like this. Right now, he has a huge step up on MS and Senna though. I believe his mistakes are just that mistakes. He plays hard, too hard at times, but I don't think he has these issues on purpose. Schumacher had Adelaide 94 (He will only ever be a six, not seven time champion to me for needing to cheat in the final race to win a championship in a known illegal car), Spain 97, Monaco Quali, etc.etc. He had too many deliberate cheats, dangerous moves and downright deliberate acts to ever be considered GOAT despite his massive skills on and off track. Senna likewise. Too dangerous a driver to ever be worthy of GOAT, despite possibly the best ever natural talent. Now, Schumacher was 22 before he made his F1 debut, Senna was 23 or 24. Max is still only 21 at the end of his fourth season. He should have had time to mature, but he's still way young. I know even if I had the skill and money, I was such an immature little prick 21 that I would never have been mature enough to drive. Maybe he'll grow out of this. I hope so, because he should be great, but if he carries on he'll be another 'wasted' talent with too many asterisks against his records.
wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UltraDork
11/13/18 10:44 a.m.

Max seems to me to be the perfect example of how most people drive go karts....

 

I was in front....  it's my line....  etc....  never taking responsibility for actions that cause an event (even if they are in the right).

 

I endurance race a good bit.  I learned quickly that your car can end up a piece of twisted artwork even though what you did as the driver was technically okay.  Sometimes it's better to lose a second and keep racing than it is to turn in....

T.J.
T.J. MegaDork
11/13/18 11:43 a.m.

Max when he has a half of a car length lead: "I'm turning in and it is your job to drive off the track or brake to avoid me!"

Max when he is a half car length behind: "We are side by side and I will not yield. Let me pass or I will take us both out!"

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
11/13/18 11:56 a.m.

I wonder if anyone has ever tallied up Max's decisions, and how many championship points have been lost, and how much in crash damage.

racerdave600
racerdave600 UltraDork
11/13/18 12:19 p.m.
z31maniac said:

I wonder if anyone has ever tallied up Max's decisions, and how many championship points have been lost, and how much in crash damage.

I bet Red Bull keeps count.  Not just in count, but dollar amounts as well.  He spends a lot of money in both damage and missed points.  If he were not quite as fast I would imagine he would have been gone before now.  

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
11/13/18 2:23 p.m.
racerdave600 said:
z31maniac said:

I wonder if anyone has ever tallied up Max's decisions, and how many championship points have been lost, and how much in crash damage.

I bet Red Bull keeps count.  Not just in count, but dollar amounts as well.  He spends a lot of money in both damage and missed points.  If he were not quite as fast I would imagine he would have been gone before now.  

But he's still 5th in the WDC standings with a high likelihood of snagging 4th and a chance at 3rd.  That kind of performance buys a lot of goodwill and acceptance at a team.  RB are a safe 3rd in the constructors and cant gain or loose places from there.  RB have thrown all their surgery caffeine behind him.  Danny boy is heading for Renault, he's their golden goose, even if sometimes he looses an egg or two.  HEre are my thoughts on Max cut and past from another forum:

Max has talent, no doubt. Absolute top line A++ talent in the LCH, MS, Prost, Clark, Fangio etc. league. I want to like him, I'm trying hard to like him, but he's making it very very hard to support him. He should be the talent that spends the next decade chasing down LCH and MS's achievement. But I fear he's going to throw away to many races with stupid **** like this. Right now, he has a huge step up on MS and Senna though. I believe his mistakes are just that mistakes. He plays hard, too hard at times, but I don't think he has these issues on purpose. Schumacher had Adelaide 94 (He will only ever be a six, not seven time champion to me for needing to cheat in the final race to win a championship in a known illegal car), Spain 97, Monaco Quali, etc.etc. He had too many deliberate cheats, dangerous moves and downright deliberate acts to ever be considered GOAT despite his massive skills on and off track. Senna likewise. Too dangerous a driver to ever be worthy of GOAT, despite possibly the best ever natural talent. Now, Schumacher was 22 before he made his F1 debut, Senna was 23 or 24. Max is still only 21 at the end of his fourth season. He should have had time to mature, but he's still way young. I know even if I had the skill and money, I was such an immature little prick 21 that I would never have been mature enough to drive. Maybe he'll grow out of this. I hope so, because he should be great, but if he carries on he'll be another 'wasted' talent with too many asterisks against his records.

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
11/13/18 2:45 p.m.

You cut and pasted that earlier :) I  agree that Max makes bad decisions but he's not purposefully dangerous the way that Senna and Schumi were. He will race hard but he won't take out another driver on purpose. I would love to see Hamilton and Max go at it with nothing on the line but a single race and with healthy equipment. Maybe we'll see that on the final race this season.

I don't think Red Bull is the right environment for Max if he wants to become more mature and accountable. Horner has never met someone he couldn't throw under a bus and he's a bad role model for the immature young driver. It's a team with a culture of blame. I think that just about any other team would be better for him in the long run, but there's no way that's going to happen.

 

m4ff3w
m4ff3w UberDork
11/13/18 3:18 p.m.

 

 

 

 

We had fun at USGP

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
11/13/18 8:23 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

You cut and pasted that earlier :) I  agree that Max makes bad decisions but he's not purposefully dangerous the way that Senna and Schumi were. He will race hard but he won't take out another driver on purpose. I would love to see Hamilton and Max go at it with nothing on the line but a single race and with healthy equipment. Maybe we'll see that on the final race this season.

I don't think Red Bull is the right environment for Max if he wants to become more mature and accountable. Horner has never met someone he couldn't throw under a bus and he's a bad role model for the immature young driver. It's a team with a culture of blame. I think that just about any other team would be better for him in the long run, but there's no way that's going to happen.

 

Keith.....this take is very thought provoking.....and here's mine .....is the culture at Sauber possibly conducive to 'grooming' someone the likes of Max with the Kimi being present , or will ego rear it's ugly head..????

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
11/14/18 6:19 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

You cut and pasted that earlier :)

That's err, embarrassing.  I'll blame being too busy yesterday. 

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