From HPDE 1 to HPDE 4. Where to go when you're ready to move up from an NA Miata?

Hey guys, 

Today I seek your wisdom. For I have done the internet well, by buying a stock NA Miata ~2 years ago and started racing and going from HPDE 1 to HPDE 4 which I currently happily sit. The car is currently sitting at ~2150 pounds wet, makes ~150 whp on a 1.8L VVT and has been bulletproof reliable. I run SCCA SM times at most tracks on street tires.  

My question is this: Where do I go from here? I am potentially looking for a replacement HPDE/TT car that won't break the bank, is competitive in many time trial classes and time attack street mod classes, and has a pretty wide aftermarket. Below are my current thoughts, tell me what you think. I'd like to keep the purchase price of the car below ~15K, but lower is better obviously. It's worth noting that most tracks by us are very slow, and don't usually reward power cars. 

Option 1: Honda S2000

Pro's: 

1. Very quick, very capable stock. Tend to run SM times with just tires. 

2. Great bulletproof reliable engines

3. 16-17 inch wheels with the ability to fit 275/35's pretty easily

4. Moderate consumable cost

Con's: 

1. Quite expensive for a clean one

2. Used engines are $3000!

3. Rotors tend to brake with heavy use

4. Everyone has one (for good reason)

Option 2: C5 Corvette

Pro's: 

1. Relatively cheap for a LOT of car

2. Very reliable, great motor that would make more than enough power with simple bolt-ons

3. Id wager they are the fastest option here

Con's: 

1. Very high consumable cost

2. Literally everyone has one

3. Not very knowledgeable with corvettes just yet (much research needed)

Option 3: NC Miata

Pro's:

1. Bit of an oddball, but it's just a quicker Miata that I'm already used to

2. Cheap consumables

3. 09+ has forged internals that make reliable FI power easy to approach reliably

4. Fairly unique considering the other choices

Con's: 

1. It's an NC Miata

2. Rollbar options are few. Would need to source a rollbar and then a hardtop (OEM is too expensive)

3. Relatively smallish size tires without a fender roll/pull

So what do you guys think? I see new people talking about "what car should I get" but I feel like not many people talk about what more experienced people should move to. Thanks! 

Photo for attention: 

Any reason you wouldn’t just keep the NA?  Sounds like you have a good thing going. 

Based on what I see at the HPDEs near me, the next step is Corvette.  

With the slow tracks around you it seems like you already have the right car. Why are you thinking of switching cars?

Trackspeed or FM turbo setup?

E36 M3.  Not that I'm biased or anything...

As one of your concerns is TT, how do the cars you've selected sit in those classes?  Are they all competitive?  Which one provides the most competition locally(ish)?

If you're interested in running TT, buy a TT car.  Even if it's not a competitive one, you'll save a lot on parts and can then learn the car and get it sorted yourself.

How about  a TaG kart and wheel-to-wheel racing? Should be able to get nice equipment and do a season for $10k.

z31maniac said:

Trackspeed or FM turbo setup?

Boost what you've got and add R-comps.  You'll be the fastest thing around.

Thanks for the replies guys, just got back from lunch. Replies should be much quicker now.

Truthfully (and I am being truthful) I do not have one single good reason to get rid of the Miata. That being said the main driver is that basically my brain tells me to get something new to play with every once and a while. I feel like I have explored the NA platform quite a lot, and I'm getting to the point where my brain just wants something new. I know, it's illogical haha. 

On the other hand, here's some things that I'm getting sick of or that could change: 

1. No power windows blow when it's pouring on grid and there's no way to roll them up while in your harness

2. The whole thing creaks, rattles, bangs, booms, whines, shrieks 24/7. You have never heard a more god awful racket until you've driven in a mildly prepped 25 year old Miata prepped by an idiot. 

3. Currently I struggle to squeeze anymore time out of the car. Recently the delta time difference from the last 3 track days was .05 seconds regardless of any setup changes. I just feel like I'm at a standstill. 

4. In order to compete in the classes I want, I have to make a large jump from what I consider to be a fairly okay car and make a ton of changes that will potentially lead me to be no faster than a C5 or S2K with tires and basic aero, despite me throwing thousands at it. 

5. Will it start? How will it run today? Will my headlights turn on today? These are all questions that are left unanswered when you are running a different engine, with an ancient ECU. (Megasquirt 3 is still quite primitive compared to any new processor tech). PID and processing values are so insanely slow. I've made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot since I bought the car. Mistakes that won't happen on a clean slate etc. 

*Edit* Oh and no ABS can be a pain some days

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

z31maniac said:

Trackspeed or FM turbo setup?

Boost what you've got and add R-comps.  You'll be the fastest thing around.

Also worth noting that I do have a C30-84 TDR Rotrex kit sitting in my garage. 

Forgive me,  but I'm enjoying the irony of the C5 having a con of "literally everyone has one" when you're currently tracking a Miata 

"I am potentially looking for a replacement HPDE/TT car that won't break the bank, is competitive in many time trial classes and time attack street mod classes, and has a pretty wide aftermarket."

Based on that statement, I would recommend a Miata.

Is there a reason you want to change cars? You're looking at competing, which means you'll be classed with cars roughly on par with where your car is. A faster car will result in competition that is equally fast. SM times on street tires is moving pretty good in that car. I don't know that you'd necessarily need to change cars.

Note, though, this perspective is coming from a guy with a Camaro SS 1LE and after being The Fast Guy at all of my DEs this year, I'm looking at moving to a slower car so that I can actually run and play with others on the track rather than just clawing my way through traffic in order to have enough clear track to set a decent time. I want to be able to go out and play, and that's hard being a fast guy in a fast car.

Edit: I typed all of that out and then I had to dial into a meeting, so you've already answered a couple of those questions.

Being in a car you don't trust puts a huge damper on your fun. Move into a car that you can easily tech check and take for granted that once you've checked a piece, it will function correctly.

Just fix your miata more. There's parts and techniques/processes available to fix your complaints with the car for far less than 15k. 

Forgive me for answering with questions, but I think if you provide a bit more info on your goals, the feedback you get may be more useful to you.

End game: 

Do you have any interest in going wheel to wheel? If so, the affordable class you’d have the most fun racing in chooses the car. Often those getting into TT end up enjoying wheel to wheel a lot more and going there.

Goals:

How important are lap times?

How important is competition? Or is it just/all about self improvement?

How much continuous car development (not maintenance) do you want to do? Is that fun or a burden? Thinking spec type vs. P/W classing.

How important is it to you to feel like the car is “cool,” even if that means less competition or a somewhat higher cost? And if it does matter, what does “cool” mean to you?

Consumables:

Particularly thinking of the Corvette, are consumable costs acceptable?  

Are you running the best R comp tires allowed by your rule set, and could you afford to if you wanted to with each of those car choices? 

Other cars:

Is an M3 another option to you? 

How about a single seater like a formula ford, FC, or prototype?

Does a vintage restomod type track car build get you excited despite probably inferior in-class performance?

An original Mini Cooper with RWD and a hayabusa motor? They sell kits in the U.K. and the car (with a full cage) would weigh far less than most sedans.

I'd say add the Rotrex and party. Plus the aftermarket for the C5 and the S2K aren't  as reasonably priced as the Miata. 

thatsnowinnebago said:

Forgive me,  but I'm enjoying the irony of the C5 having a con of "literally everyone has one" when you're currently tracking a Miata 

Sometimes I'm a little slow. Thanks for pointing that out!

I know a lot of people are saying to just stick to the NA, but considering everything you mentioned I'd move on as well.  I've been considering the S2k and C5 as well for track days and autocross and I'm not exactly decided yet either.  On paper it seems like the S2K is a Goldilocks car as far as speed vs. consumables.  The C5's built-in roll hoop and performance/cost ratio are awfully tempting though.

That said, I'll second docwyte's E36 recommendation, at least as an additional contender.  If this were a purely logical decision I'd probably be settled on getting one of those instead based on the money/speed/safety ratio.  They have a cheaper (on average) buy-in, tons of support, interior dimensions leave more room for a cage, and can easily be found already track-prepped.  Admittedly I haven't driven one in anger yet, but I'm currently building a 328 for Lemons with some friends.  I guess we'll see if it matches up to my on-paper expectations.

Don't know about NASA TT, but at least IME with SCCA TT, cars are grouped into roughly equal performance groups. So as mentioned, you'll just end up moving into a different group to compete against.

If you don't have big power tracks, IMHO that negates the reason for running a C5 unless you want to run a C5.

I'd look very closely into which classes your current and desired cars would fall into if you want to be competitive. TT and especially time attack at the higher end can get super expensive if you want to be competitive.

Is that Waterford?  I live 10 min away from there.

What about V8 miata?  Its what i eventually want to do to mine.

You say it creaks and groans, what sort of cage/bracing are you running?  Have you considered seam welding or looking at adding extra bracing?

I'd sell the supercharger, personally, and pony up for the V8 parts to convert yours to V8 power.

You can make a turbo or supercharged engine work well on the track, its been done. 

However, it can still be a bit of a grenade with the pin pulled, lots of effort required to ensure proper cooling is provided of the coolant and oil.

For the street, its a blast and for just messing around on track days, its great.

The V8 will provide more torque for exiting the corners, it tends to be pretty tractable for power delivery, you'll weigh less than the Corvettes and have less frontal area for the top end of the track(s) and the installation will allow you to seam weld the car, add some bracing, make the drivetrain stronger and more able to handle the abuse of track driving.  Finally, it will make lovely noises that will make you ignore the creaks and groans :)

So, I'll post a pic just to show that I'm literally in almost exactly the same spot...

NA with VVT swap on MS3.  I'm probably a year behind you in honing my driving and getting the car dialed in, being a little bit off SM times at the tracks where I've gotten useful data.   

First, if you're wanting to get into W2W classes, you're best bet is to pick a class that fits your budget and buy a car that's already built.  The biggest thing to consider when choosing the car is the cost of consumables and spares for things that are likely to break.  

I have no desire to get into W2W, but do have some interest in possibly getting into time attack type stuff down the road.

My decision is to stick with my Miata and continue to develop it.  My next step is full cage and safety gear.  After that I'm looking at bumping the power, as that timeframe should coincide with having the chassis (and me) really dialed in.  Easy button is the Trackspeed EFR kit.  Other option is an engine swap.  Point is, there is plenty of headroom for more speed in a Miata.

By sticking with my Miata, I have a platform I know inside/out, and it has a huge aftermarket and reasonable consumable costs.  It already punches above its weight, and with more power will be an incredibly fun HPDE car.  A couple of west coast vendors have already shown a Miata can be pretty successful in Time Attack as well.

It's easy sometimes to lose enthusiasm, especially when you've been working on a car for a long time.  Just think about what an additional 100hp would do for that... 

BTW, eventually you won't have side windows at all, so the lack of power windows won't matter.  You'll still get wet, though... 

goingnowherefast said:

KyAllroad (Jeremy) said:

z31maniac said:

Trackspeed or FM turbo setup?

Boost what you've got and add R-comps.  You'll be the fastest thing around.

Also worth noting that I do have a C30-84 TDR Rotrex kit sitting in my garage. 

Install that johnny. I put one on my '00-swapped 1990, and even without a proper tune, it gets up and hustles.

I own and regularly track a '79 3 series, a V8 E36, and a '13 M3. 

So, light/low, medium/medium, and heavy/high.

I really enjoy the many differences in the way the cars run at the track, and I would hate to give any of them up to focus on just one car.

So if it were me, I would get the Corvette, because I would enjoy the variety

Turbos are fun because you can turn up the boost as you desire over time.  Lot easier to dial in a power level than with na cars.

I get the desire for variety, in the last four years my daily driver/sometime track car has gone from S2000 to C6 Z06 now to F80 M3.  I've enjoyed the variety.  S2000 values are going up and I don't know that they're a great value for a track car at this point.  That said it was a lot of fun on track.  Power is pretty fixed, not many gains to be had and boost really adds cost and reliability concerns.  The Vette was a hoot but not really my thing...I like smaller nimble cars, high revs and boost. 

What about Cayman, Boxster, SW20 MR2 with V6 swap, E36 or E46 M3, 350Z?  NA 6 cylinders generally put you at a nice place for enjoyable power on track. 

My track car is a 240SX, pretty cheap way to go fast but lots of work needed.