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fasted58
fasted58 Reader
5/18/11 11:08 p.m.

http://www.mrheater.com/product.aspx?catid=50&id=180

I was planning one of these: 75K BTU propane or NG (propane will convert to NG as well) till I dig the gas line. Hangs from ceiling joists w/ minimal clearance. Shop is over 900 sq. ft.

I can get a free used forced air furnace from my HVAC contractor buddy but it'd hafta sit in the 'well' of the addition next to the gas powered equipment, and ducting into the shop floor would be a pita.

Anybody have one? Comments/ recommendations?

ditchdigger
ditchdigger HalfDork
5/18/11 11:28 p.m.

My air compressor is upstairs in my shop. Yes it vibrates but it is still quieter than it being downstairs and I don't have to look at it or trip over it

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
3/31/18 1:46 a.m.

So... Seven years later, the shop's been complete (and pretty much awesome) for a year or so. I, uh... got a little bogged down.

The bad news: We're moving.

The good news: We're moving to a house with a (relatively) huge lot, and once we recover from the initial purchase and immediate improvements to that structure in which we will actually live, I get to build a new shop from scratch. It deserves it's own thread, but I'm going to jot down a few things as a jumping off point to refer back to:

  1. I put in two 220 outlets, and yet as we speak I have an extension cord set up to reach the Ranchero with the MIG welder, because I put them both ten feet apart on one wall, opposite where the car goes.
  2. Nothing to do with the shop building, but I need to replace the casters on the MIG cart before the next time I try to walk it a lap of the shop; I think I got slag in the caster steering bearings when I mounted them. It makes moving the MIG cart a bit like trying to complete a dog agility course with a zombie badger.
  3. I haven't particularly longed for a sink for the most part, but it's been mentioned in this thread a bunch of times, and I see no reason not to work it into the Dream Shop I Will Use Til I Die.
  4. I broke down in giggles of joy the first time I went to use an angle grinder under the Ranchero's hood and didn't have to move after walking up to the car; I was able to reach to my left and plug the grinder in, then reach to my right and grab the vacuum to pick up the cruft. It was a moment of aching beauty. I love having lots of outlets.
  5. Air compressor probably in attic. Seriously considering scroll compressor. The new neighbors work from home, and I intend to spend the coming decades as a good neighbor, and wouldn't mind having a quiet compressor for my own enjoyment.
  6. Two post lift. The ceiling will be high enough. The concrete will be appropriate.
  7. The concrete will also be appropriate for all sorts of other anchors; I want to be able to bolt down tools that want bolting down, and to be able to do torsional stiffness measurement on chassis.
  8. With a patio on the roof, if a flat roof can be made to work, I should be able to enjoy a view of Mt. St Helens. I'm not sure it'll help me build better cars, but it sounds nice. Maybe the shop fridge should be up there.

Jcamper
Jcamper Reader
4/1/18 11:46 a.m.

Couple things I think are worth mentioning: I love my 2 post lift but wish I had put some sort of trays into the floor that would accept lighting fixtures. At some point I will probably add a bunch of LEDs to the lift itself, and maybe that will be fine. 

When I had the floor poured I was not thinking about trying to corner weight and align something on it. I would have a bit less slope on the floor around my lift. 

Cars drive in wet quite a bit. For now I don’t have any insulation so not an issue but probably once I do I will need to add an attic fan with humidity sensor. I keep a ceiling fan on low all the time. 

Jcamper

nocones
nocones UltraDork
4/1/18 12:36 p.m.

On the 220V outlets, get a big big lots of circuits electrical box.  Then put in another one.  I have a 22 circuit box in a 1200 square foot garage and wish I had done a 40.  I have 6 220V circuits (about 1 every 15' along the walls.  I can use the welders everywhere but the 10 other circuits don't stretch to far when you have ~30 light fixtures and 140' of wall outlets as well as ceiling fans, exterior lights and then and then.  Another $40 up front would prevent me from adding a sub panel down the road if I need to ad anything else. I have a few 15 amp dual pole breakers which I'd rather not have but it works.

 

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
4/1/18 12:39 p.m.
nocones said:

On the 220V outlets, get a big big lots of circuits electrical box.  Then put in another one.  I have a 22 circuit box in a 1200 square foot garage and wish I had done a 40.  I have 6 220V circuits (about 1 every 15' along the walls.  I can use the welders everywhere but the 10 other circuits don't stretch to far when you have ~30 light fixtures and 140' of wall outlets as well as ceiling fans, exterior lights and then and then.  Another $40 up front would prevent me from adding a sub panel down the road if I need to ad anything else. I have a few 15 amp dual pole breakers which I'd rather not have but it works.

one thing I’ve done is put my 220 on extension cords.  I use 30 amp 220 Volt drier outlet and plugs.   

The cords are big heavy gauge so I can run welders and Mills etc wherever.  Everything is on wheels  including the welding table etc.  

 

 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/1/18 2:35 p.m.

I'm gonna combine the previous 2 suggestions...

You don't need a huge panel, or lots and lots of 220V circuits. 

I wired my shop with about a dozen 220V outlets, all on the same circuit. They work like 110V wall outlets. I plug in whatever I want.

Im NEVER gonna run 6 welders at once, but I can run 1 welder anywhere I want. Or a table saw, or a planer, or a bandsaw, or...

I then have a short 220V extension cord. So, I can set up anywhere. 

All my equipment is on wheels. 

You only need as many circuits as the number of machines you may run at the same time. 

codrus
codrus UltraDork
4/1/18 2:40 p.m.
SVreX said:

You only need as many circuits as the number of machines you may run at the same time. 

 

That said, if you have stationary 220v equipment, it makes sense to give it its own circuit.  Lift, compressor, EV charger, stuff like that.

 

SkinnyG
SkinnyG SuperDork
4/1/18 3:31 p.m.
SVreX said:

You only need as many circuits as the number of machines you may run at the same time. 

Unless there is the joy of code/inspection/outlet-limits sort of thing.

If not, giv'er!

Jcamper
Jcamper Reader
4/1/18 5:08 p.m.

Couple more: If I ever end up with an enclosed race trailer I have thought it would be cool to just leave the compressor in that and have a couple bulkhead fittings outside where it could just hook into the shop’s supply lines. No dragging the thing around and noise problem solved.

I will set up a way to remotely interact with my shop heaters one of these days. I have a couple 240 volt electric heaters. 

If you have a St Helens view we must be semi near each other. I am in Longview. 

Jcamper

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
4/1/18 6:06 p.m.

In reply to Jcamper :

Pretty close! Moving from SE to NE Portland; I'll only have a Mt St Helens view if I get up above things a little bit :) I *think* we might be able to see it from the upstairs window of the house once the chimney goes away, and hopefully from this possible garage-top patio...

turtl631
turtl631 HalfDork
4/2/18 12:27 a.m.

I like the patio idea.  

 

What are you thinking for the floor?  I'm in a roughly similar situation... We bought a place with a nice big detached garage that is now insulated, heated with a natural gas heater, and well lighted with T8 LEDs.  The floor is just bare concrete which sucks and I have no water out there.  I also haven't pulled the trigger on a lift although I have a dedicated 220V circuit for it. 

 

We may move to a different neighborhood, and the next garage will probably be smaller than what I have now so I anticipate building from scratch.  I'd probably do tile flooring if I were building new.  I wish I had at least a skylight too if not a window to the backyard, no windows in a garage in Wisconsin means that I can't see outside for a good portion of the year.  The garage build becomes it's own hobby...

Yitoge
Yitoge New Reader
4/2/18 1:40 a.m.

Boxhead is right, having proper illumination inside garage is very important

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
4/2/18 8:01 a.m.

In reply to fasted58 :

Go to in floor radiant heat!! A garage that size can probably be heated with nothing more than a hot water heater. Putting the PEX. ( plastic tube ) in the floor is a mornings work but well worth it when your heat bills start rolling in. ( Wisconsin make sure you use antifreeze in the system in case the power goes out ). 

Another thing you will want in a sink. Probably even a toilet.  Nothing is worse than just getting started and nature demands your attention. Rather than have it on the shop floor put it upstairs in the attic where the water heater is for the in floor.  Use a pull down stairs for maximum floor space. Sooner or later it will pay off!!! 

If you go cheap on the walls you will regret it.  2x 4 walls may get by but won’t keep much heat in. Especially with fiberglass insulation. 

Try ICF’s ( insulated concrete forms). You can’t believe how easy they are to put up. My young teenage daughter and her Aunt did mine  in a weekend when a back problem had me bedridden and winter was coming.  Needless to say they had never done any construction work prior to this. 

They aren’t cheap but do not require a professional saving you more than the added cost over the cheapest. 

 

RossD
RossD MegaDork
4/2/18 9:38 a.m.

Radiant floor would be paramount if I was building a new garage. Even if you only put the pex in and wait on the rest of the system. I would also put some light tubes in for extra lighting. I would also consider a toilet exhaust fan above any smell areas. Think welding table, aerosols, fuel storage,...

Jcamper
Jcamper Reader
4/2/18 12:15 p.m.

I have always thought that in floor heat was sort of the opposite of what you want in a shop space that is rarely occupied? I did a couple electric heaters so that I could heat it up quickly when I wanted to be there. Especially when the lift means rarely laying on the floor. You are essentially heating a concrete slab with little or no insulation between it and the outdoors/ground. Folks that are doing this, how have your power bills responded? Jcamper

 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/2/18 12:30 p.m.
RossD said:

I would also consider a toilet exhaust fan above any smell areas. Think welding table, aerosols, fuel storage,...

I wouldn't use a toilet exhaust fan for that. 

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
4/2/18 12:58 p.m.
Jcamper said:

I have always thought that in floor heat was sort of the opposite of what you want in a shop space that is rarely occupied? I did a couple electric heaters so that I could heat it up quickly when I wanted to be there. Especially when the lift means rarely laying on the floor. You are essentially heating a concrete slab with little or no insulation between it and the outdoors/ground. Folks that are doing this, how have your power bills responded? Jcamper

 

Properly installed radiant floor heating has 2" of foam insulation between the slab and the gravel base.  

STM317
STM317 SuperDork
4/2/18 1:25 p.m.

With radiant heat, you can't just insulate beneath the slab. You also have to insulate the perimeter of the slab on all sides or you just end up heating the outdoors/driveway.

Personally, I'm not convinced of the benefits of radiant heat vs a more traditional method. You have to get a lot of stuff just right for radiant to work well and remain efficient, and there are a lot of ways that it can go wrong and end up costing you a bunch. The heat exchanger/pump has to be very well designed, the entire building (including slab) has to be very well insulated, and you have to be sure that you never drill through a pipe buried in the floor. It also may have an effect on a floor coating if that's your thing. Insulating the heck out of the walls/ceiling and going with a more traditional heat source seems to have a lot more margin for error to me, and I won't have to remember exactly where the radiant tubes run in my floor a decade from now if I need to mount something to the floor.

Ransom
Ransom PowerDork
4/2/18 1:40 p.m.

In reply to Ian F :

Huh... I guess it's a very well-spread load, but I can't help wondering what that foam does for (to) long-term stability. I'd love warm floors, but not as much as being able to have level things be level just by setting them down. Not that I expect concrete floors to be machinery spec, but my current garage floor loses four or five inches between the middle and one wall. My welding table looks a little like a refugee from a cog railway with its front and rear leg heights...

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
4/2/18 2:16 p.m.

In reply to Ransom :

Well, yeah... it's not like the foam is in direct contact with the ground. There still needs to be substantial foundation work below the foam, but not really any different than a properly installed slab.  It's one reason why a good slab costs so much - there's more to it than just a few yards of concrete. 

In reply to STM317 :

Of course.  Every choice has its pros and cons depending on your situation.  Doesn't make it better or worse.  I'd love to have radiant floor heating in a shop, but I would definitely make plans for a lift, which would likely get a separate treatment of concrete in that area.  And I'm not going into the minute details of radiant installation.  If anyone really wants to, they can do their own research.

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
4/2/18 2:35 p.m.

In reply to Jcamper :

Your feet are the farthest from your heart and will thus feel the cold the worst.  

Heat rises so anything above the floor will be warmed by the floor. 

Properly engineered if you measure the temp it will be the same as the floor heat all the way up to the ceiling 

If you are concerned about future holes in the floor take a picture of the tubing so you know for example it’s 6 inches on center and 6 inches from each wall. Put it with your blueprints. 

I put a cushion of sand over the gravel before the foam. Oh and the load is distributed over all of the foam. Not localized 

spitfirebill
spitfirebill MegaDork
4/2/18 3:04 p.m.

Best I can say is hire some Amish barn builders and come in three days to a dried-in garage.    

frenchyd
frenchyd Dork
4/2/18 3:37 p.m.
Jcamper said:

I have always thought that in floor heat was sort of the opposite of what you want in a shop space that is rarely occupied? I did a couple electric heaters so that I could heat it up quickly when I wanted to be there. Especially when the lift means rarely laying on the floor. You are essentially heating a concrete slab with little or no insulation between it and the outdoors/ground. Folks that are doing this, how have your power bills responded? Jcamper

 

The reason for in floor radiant heat is to lower your energy costs. It will do that so much more comfortably than any other heating methods. 

Back in the early 1950’s my grandparents  had infloor radiant heat and when we wanted to take a nap we’d grab a pillow and lay down following grandpa’s lead.  Warm floor meant you didn’t need a blanket. And when you got up you were never as stiff as when you slept in a bed.  

Back in those days the heating bill would never be over $5.00 when the heating bill for my fathers house was almost $20 during the winter months. But dad had forced air heat.  

As for insulation, heat goes up and doesn’t conduct well through soil. However not all garages can be slab on grade.   If a foundation is required the slab is always inside the foundation.  

The0retical
The0retical UltraDork
4/2/18 4:00 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

I never had radiant heat floors in the garage but the first place I rented when I lived in Ohio had them. It was nice not having to run heaters or a stove to heat the space and the warm floor in the middle of the winter.... yea I was sold on the idea.

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