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ol doc gully
ol doc gully Reader
6/21/21 6:37 p.m.

I've been thinking / reading / searching on this for far too long and really haven't come up with a good solution so figured i would bring it to the hive.

I'm looking for tires which give good steering feel and driving experience but are on the low end of grippy. Something great for curvy mountain roads, but doesn't have to sustain track duty - but mostly I want to be able to slide the rear end out around a roundabout or what have you with as little speed and throttle and risk as possible, and do so with as progressive/communicative breakaway as possible. in my experience the grippiest tires give out the least smoothly or expectantly, so what I'm really doing is looking for the opposite end of that spectrum, but hoping to avoid the slushiest and vaguest of the all seasons. I feel like there is a tire somewhere in the cheaper category that would appease this. I'd be willing to pay for the right tire, but just seems like a bill that would be fit by a tire in the cheapo category.

I do not care about road noise, winter/snow or wet performance.

I generally tend to buy awesome grippy tires for my track/sports cars and have a 4Runner daily, but I now have a sporty RWD non-track car daily that needs tires and this is my target. what recommendations do you have???

I feel like this is a good GRM discussion so I won't make it too personal but for me it would be for a E90 M3. biggest thing there is constraint it puts on size as I would be looking for a 275/35-18 (square), but again, lets try not to get too bogged down by that

 

Maybe its best to define the traits?

  • stiff compound
  • stiff sidewall (not necessarily desirable trait for progressive breakaway as per input below)
  • low tread depth (one thread on GRM suggested getting stiff compound and shaving it down - great suggestion, which tire for that then?)
  • shoulder tread design (for progressive breakaway.. large blocks? uniformity?)
  • added: TALL sidewall
  • ?
  • (I'm not particularly knowledgeable in this regard)

 

Maybe some value in aiming for a particular category?

  • UHP all season or better to go with a high performance summer?
  • Grand Touring Summer? (this is the category for eco tires such as BRZ's michelin primacy HP)

 

As far as specific tires:

  • Michelin Primacy HP - (again, as used on BRZ) would seem the best/easiest/obvious option, but are only available in very limited sizes.
  • Federal 595SS - (UHP all season) cheap, but I feel like still quite grippy, so is more of just a budget track tire. I dont think that really is the same mark I'm after but they come in the right size for me so right now is my leading candidate.
  • Kumho PS91 - (max performance summer) I had heard give good steering feel but dont have too much ultimate grip compard to the competition but likely still high. ive mostly been going back and forth between these and the federal 595ss
  • Continental Extremecontact Sport - (max performance summer), I feel like this is the go-to daily driver tire for those of us who love driving and a great all-arounder
  • Sumitomo HTR ZIII and P zero rosso are other names that popped up actually in other GRM threads (linked below) but not too much info or context for comparison
  • Michelin - I'm inclined to like just because they have such well engineered products. But the talk is only ever about PSS since it is the king; great tire but so much grip its exactly what I dont want. any experience with maybe PS AS 3p or others?

 

I'll keep updating this thread based on input below.

 

some good threads I've found on here, but all are always just slightly off the mark

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/lower-grip-still-durable-track-tire/97813/page1/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/low-grip-tires/82861/page1/

Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter)
Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/21/21 6:44 p.m.

Federal 595 super steel. Plenty of grip to a point, easy to modulate with the skinny pedal, cheap. Ive had them on quite a few rwd cars with similar experiences on the street. 

ol doc gully
ol doc gully New Reader
6/21/21 6:55 p.m.

Interestingly - just came across this listing of low rolling resistance tires offered by TireRack. if we assume the BRZ formula is right then this should be it...

https://www.tirerack.com/landing/fuel_efficiency.jsp?gclid=CjwKCAjw8cCGBhB6EiwAgORey-BRoplh_C7MC29Zq9wr6RbobhtSG5KWe2kEd_4LNDqAU_KtPYj8HhoCgSMQAvD_BwE&ef_id=CjwKCAjw8cCGBhB6EiwAgORey-BRoplh_C7MC29Zq9wr6RbobhtSG5KWe2kEd_4LNDqAU_KtPYj8HhoCgSMQAvD_BwE:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!3756!3!354820920227!p!!g!!low%20rolling%20resistance%20tires&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

Max performance summer tires of note:

  • Michelin pilot sport 4S ($270 ea) (not recommended as per input below - still very grippy)

Ultra high performance all season of note:

  • Michelin pilot sport all season 4 ($243 ea)
  • Yoko advan sport A/S+ ($210 ea)

('of note' just selfishly meaning they come in my size, 275/35-18)

rslifkin
rslifkin UberDork
6/21/21 6:57 p.m.

The PS4S is certainly not low grip.  It's likely got more than you could responsibly use on the street.  But honestly, I prefer that in a street tire, as it gives a lot of extra margin for other people doing dumb E36 M3 in front of you. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/21/21 7:02 p.m.

I wouldn't necessarily look for a stiff sidewall, that can make breakaway behavior a little exciting. I've often gone to the Yokohama S.drive for this, the replacement is the Flava flav V701 or something like that. 300TW.

 

Doesn't come in a 275/35-18, but if you want lower grip maybe you don't get steamrollers :) It does come in the space-saver 255/40-18 that is the same diameter.

...and that size is on clearout. Sheesh.

ol doc gully
ol doc gully New Reader
6/21/21 7:14 p.m.
Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter) said:

Federal 595 super steel. Plenty of grip to a point, easy to modulate with the skinny pedal, cheap. Ive had them on quite a few rwd cars with similar experiences on the street. 

good to hear a +1 for it, as it is still frontrunner for me

ol doc gully
ol doc gully New Reader
6/21/21 7:16 p.m.
rslifkin said:

The PS4S is certainly not low grip.  It's likely got more than you could responsibly use on the street.  But honestly, I prefer that in a street tire, as it gives a lot of extra margin for other people doing dumb E36 M3 in front of you. 

and so shall the PS4S be stricken. I hear you on good to have the margin for grip, I just really wont mind not pushing this cars limits on the street.

ol doc gully
ol doc gully New Reader
6/21/21 7:20 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I wouldn't necessarily look for a stiff sidewall, that can make breakaway behavior a little exciting. I've often gone to the Yokohama S.drive for this, the replacement is the Flava flav V701 or something like that. 300TW.

 

Doesn't come in a 275/35-18, but if you want lower grip maybe you don't get steamrollers :) It does come in the space-saver 255/40-18 that is the same diameter.

...and that size is on clearout. Sheesh.

Great to know RE breakaway (modified original post). 

Definitely seems like I need to look into Yoko's more.

And yeah, my tire size is reeeeaaally limiting things, haha (hence why I tried not to get too bogged down with it - so this thread can have some value for posterity's sake).

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
6/21/21 7:23 p.m.

R888

ol doc gully
ol doc gully New Reader
6/21/21 7:30 p.m.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

R888

Any reasoning in particular? I would have very much put R888 in the category of LOTS of grip, though maybe decently progressive breakaway for being in that company

02Pilot
02Pilot UltraDork
6/21/21 7:35 p.m.

Buy a narrower set of wheels and get skinnier tires. I've got an E82 128i on an 1M/M3 suspension, and even with 215-50/17s F and 235-45/17s R it's got more grip than I can reasonably use without a lot more speed than what you're describing. If you're going to stick with 285s, get the hardest hockey pucks you can find and have fun.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
6/21/21 7:47 p.m.

It sounds like you want a 200TW tire that has been aged/heat cycled into oblivion.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/21/21 7:48 p.m.

I usually kept something like this on the Impala SS.  Of course, I drove it so infrequently that I hadn't put tires on it for years, so any of the ones I suggest probably aren't made anymore.

Kumho Ecsta ASX was what was on it when I sold it to Tim.  It was their UHP all season.  Very sticky, very progressive, but I had the advantage of heaps of V8 torque and 4.10 rear gears.

Before that I had the same basic tire from Toyo but I forget the model.

Prior to that I had Pirelli P1000 summer-only.  Quite possibly the worst tire I've ever had in my life.  It exceled at nothing except being noisy.  Wouldn't take acceleration torque, complained in corners, and probably the most fun I've had in the car for that reason.

I would shoot for whatever the HP or UHP All-Season is in your size and go hoon.

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) UltimaDork
6/21/21 7:49 p.m.

In reply to ol doc gully :

They're pretty easy to overdrive and get quite slidy without overheating them or causing delamination. The design is practically old enough to vote and the compound isn't nearly as sticky as modern options. I mean when the second generation Elise was federalized and brought stateside, they came wearing R888s (or Yoko A048s)  and you can now import first generation Elises under the 25 year rule. I imagine the software that they utilized to design the tread pattern had hardware operating requirements that could now be fulfilled by most smartphones. The downside is they're only available in about 6 sizes these days.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
6/21/21 7:51 p.m.

I have federal 595ss on my Bugeye. Haven't really gotten my mile's on them, but take a look at the rubber casting flash before you take them for mounting. I had to debead one and trim the flash because it was interfering with the bead seat.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
6/21/21 7:56 p.m.

The thing about summer tires is that the compound gives more emphasis on grip and less concern with how the hardness changes with temperature.  A/S tires gives up peak friction and uses some additive to make them not turn into rocks when it's cold.  For that reason I tend to steer clear (pun intended) of summer only rubber unless I'm actually just running it when it's hot.  Some summer tires really change their characteristics every time it starts to get below 60 degrees, and they're often useless at 40.  I prefer the consistency of the A/S and since peak grip isn't your jam for this project, I'd do a UHP A/S or HP A/S.

I had the H-speed rated Michelin Pilot sports on my E30 and it was just about perfect for urban bombing.  I replaced them with the V-rated and it was better.

dps214
dps214 Dork
6/21/21 8:18 p.m.

Basically anything in the 300TW performance summer tire will do what you want. Conti ECS, firestone indy 500, or michelin ps4s are the usual go-tos. I guess it depends on what vehicle you're putting them on, but in my experience I'd describe them as grippy but certainly not grippy enough that you can't drift a roundabout at legal speed. Maybe there's a few performance all seasons that would do it but you're going to struggle to get the responsiveness and steering feel you want from an all season and depending on how long/fast those curvy roads are they might struggle to deal with heat buildup.

Side note, I don't know if you've driven on the oe BRZ tires. but they're not "low grip", they're borderline dangerous on anything approaching a sports car. Unless your definition of "predictable" is "literally almost any input results in slip angle".

ol doc gully
ol doc gully New Reader
6/21/21 8:21 p.m.

In reply to 02Pilot :

Yup, lets pick the best hockey pucks!

ol doc gully
ol doc gully New Reader
6/21/21 8:26 p.m.
dps214 said:

Basically anything in the 300TW performance summer tire will do what you want. Conti ECS, firestone indy 500, or michelin ps4s are the usual go-tos. I guess it depends on what vehicle you're putting them on, but in my experience I'd describe them as grippy but certainly not grippy enough that you can't drift a roundabout at legal speed. Maybe there's a few performance all seasons that would do it but you're going to struggle to get the responsiveness and steering feel you want from an all season and depending on how long/fast those curvy roads are they might struggle to deal with heat buildup.

Side note, I don't know if you've driven on the oe BRZ tires. but they're not "low grip", they're borderline dangerous on anything approaching a sports car. Unless your definition of "predictable" is "literally almost any input results in slip angle".

This and Curtis73's suggestions give a good lead in to what is probably the #1 question at the heart of the matter - UHP all season vs a max performance summer. 

SkinnyG (Forum Supporter)
SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) UberDork
6/21/21 8:30 p.m.

I bought 595's for my Locost, because they were the cheapest 13's I could find.

On the street, they were plenty grippy, and in autocross they were a barrel full of laughs with how much slip angle they loved.  They were hilarious good fun.  I'd buy them again for sure.

ol doc gully
ol doc gully New Reader
6/21/21 10:11 p.m.

In reply to SkinnyG (Forum Supporter) :

thats high praise! i like it. another big +1. plus at the price its almost worth just getting a set to burn though.

Vajingo
Vajingo HalfDork
6/21/21 10:12 p.m.

Man what you Need is some low profile tires in the front and some high profile tires in the back so that the sidewalls flex and flop over in the back and give you that oversteer that you're looking for

ol doc gully
ol doc gully Reader
6/21/21 10:12 p.m.

Anybody have any experience with RIKEN Raptor ZR A/S?

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=254

 

EDIT: actually - that review has me heavily favoring the Fuzion UHP Sport A/S ...which of course dont come in my size HAHA. 

Vajingo
Vajingo HalfDork
6/21/21 10:13 p.m.

In reply to ol doc gully :

Hey that's a good tireman

ol doc gully
ol doc gully Reader
6/21/21 10:14 p.m.
Vajingo said:

Man what you Need is some low profile tires in the front and some high profile tires in the back so that the sidewalls flex and flop over in the back and give you that oversteer that you're looking for

To the extent that that is possible within the E90 M3 wheel wells thats kind of the OEM setup, but I'm definitely wanting to stick to a square setup.

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