GRM feature idea: how do old tow rigs actually stack up?

Mark me in the interested camp for an article like this.  I've had multiple tow vehicles (mainly newer) towing a 6x12 trailer full of kart parts all over Texas and the differences have been interesting.  As far as towing is concerned, as opposed to braking, it seems to be related to torque more than anything else which is why diesels are popular?  For example:

2010 Silverado, ext cab, V6, tow package and a camper shell.  This was my first truck to tow the trailer and it was "difficult".  The truck was rated to tow it, but it would hunt gears all day long.  Constantly dropping down a gear for 2 degree inclines, slight breezes, etc.  This was with the tow button engaged on the transmission.  I was tired of the stress of that, so I "upgraded" to:

2009 Tahoe LS with the 4.8L V8.  The 4.8 was probably a bad idea, but I knew little at that point and thought a V8 would solve it.  It wasn't quite as bad as the V6, but would still hunt like crazy.  I learned to really be gentle on the gas pedal to avoid it dropping a gear, but it still wanted to pretty much all the time.  Due to financial costs, the next was a:

1996 Tahoe 2-door, 5.7L.  This truck barely felt the trailer from a towing perspective and would stay in high gear most of the time and get decent mileage to boot.  Would have kept it if I'd had the time to work on it as opposed to paying a shop for small things.  Ended up buying a:

2014 GMC Sierra single cab, tow package with the 5.3L.  Rated towing was 9600 lbs.  I loved this truck (unfortunately was totaled).  Had zero issue with towing, braking, handling.  Averaged about 20 mpg with it simply because you could barely feel the trailer behind it. 

For all of the above, I never really had issues with braking or with the trailer pushing the truck around, probably because of weight.  Most of the issues were with trying to keep up with the 75 mph speed limits around here.  Again, my assumption is around torque, but I found it odd the huge differences in packages and years.  I expected the 1996 to struggle and it was on par with the 2014.

I'm already bench building the next truck and thinking about a '88-'99 C1500 single cab with an LS swap (maybe a 6.0L) and assume that because of the torque ratings, it'll have no issues.  But, I wonder how much the older chassis design will affect it.  Hence my interest in an article of old v. new.

-Rob

Just a quick point to make here. 

You don't have to do the speed limit for automobiles. In fact, in most places it is illegal to when you are pulling a trailer. 

Cooter said:

Just a quick point to make here. 

 

You don't have to do the speed limit for automobiles. In fact, in most places it is illegal to when you are pulling a trailer. 

Understood, but on a two lane freeway where the speed limit is 75 and most folks are in the 85-90 range (including tractor trailers), staying at anything below 65-70 can be a little dangerous.  :(

-Rob

I towed my 1800 lb CRX race car, for many years, with a 20' '78 Winnebago Minnie Winnie. It had a big block Dodge engine. I used a tow dolly and later an 800 lb. tandem axle trailer. From 2003 to 2008, it had antique license plates on it.

I later upgraded to a nearly fully-depreciated '96 Acura SLX (pimped out Isuzu Trooper). Towed with that for another 5 years or so, to a bunch of races.

When I needed to tow longer distances (Virginia to Ohio), I borrowed a diesel 3/4 Dodge. Fuel mileage was far better than the Winnebago. Only slightly better then the Acura.

1996 Ford F250 7.3 turbo diesel.  LWB EXTENDED CAB.  Pulls open tandem trailer with car...c. 5,000 lbs.  Like it's nothing behind it. As long as I keep it below 2000 RPM which is about 72 miles per hour gets between 19 and 20 miles to gallon. Brakes efficient. Obviously a little primitive on the handling but does just fine in my opinion.

GRM has an old tow rig that they updated.

How is that doing?

noddaz

I would be interested in an article like this.  My thoughts on method of testing would be the need to have a cross section of the same tow vehicle.  Example is F150 from 80's to now.  For extra interest then include side bars with readers tow rigs.  

Growing up we went through a number of Woodie Wagons with special built tow motors.  I could not tell you what the tow rating was only that the drag racing guy across the street built the motors.  The GM Caprice Wagon from 198?? would tow up hill and through the twisties going to Mont Tremblant Quebec Canada without any problems.  I guess it didn't hurt that I was towing an open trailer with a 1973 Porsche 914.  

The current tow Pig used now is a 2010 (I think) Dodge Ram with a Cummings Deisal and a 6 spd manual gear box.  It tows my dad's Cayman in an enclosed trailer like there is nothing in the back.  

I'd love to see an article like this. The oldest tow rig I owned was my 2005 Yukon Denali, and it only ever pulled my E36 (3k lbs) on an 18' open steel trailer (2k lbs). I did tow a friend's rallycross Volvo 240 and the Yukon sucked in the mountains. It was geared poorly with only the 4-speed of the era, and wanted to go slow in 3rd or faster at the tippy-top of 2nd. I chose top of 2nd and earned 4.5 mpg for my efforts.

My 2011 F150 was a big upgrade, mostly due to the two extra gears in the transmission vs the Yukon.

As far as enclosed trailers are concerned, I upgraded to my enclosed right after I traded the 2011 Ford for a 2010 full-size Range Rover. It had power (510 hp) and brakes (six-piston Brembo calipers) for days, but the chassis could not handle the aero effects of pulling a 20' enclosed behind it. It was squishy and generally kind of awful. 

I question people who claim the VAG trucks tow big encloseds so well. Would it really be stable at 70 mph with a 6500 lb, 27' overall enclosed behind it? I would love to hook mine up to a borrowed Cayenne and give it a shot.

I traded the RR for a 2018 F150, which tows like a dream. Integrated brake controllers on both Fords have been awesome, and the new one has trailer blind spot monitoring which is insanely useful at dusk/nighttime. As a bonus, the driver assistance tech (adaptive cruise, lane keep assist) works with the trailer, knowing when it's hooked up or not.

Before the 2018 Ford, part of me wanted to say effit and get a 01ish F150 SuperCrew instead... but I have to think the experience with the enclosed just wouldn't be as confidence-inspiring.

I've never pulled anything with my '85 Chevy C30 Dooley that made me want a bigger (or newer) truck.  Granted, I've never come close to the max. rating either.  I think it's 10,000 pounds.  Might be 12,000.  It's pulled cars, boats, and travel trailers, and done a fine job of it.

I'd read the article.

Everything I have ever owned has towed just fine. From a 81 Corolla wagon with 2500# of fire wood behind it, to a E150 with 7000# of enclosed trailer, to the F350 with 13k# of camper. They all did the job without issue, but I also didn't drive them all the same. I've even towed my 16' tandem trailer behind the Samurai without issue. Top speed was about 35 and most of it was during a Christmas Parade. 

The safety of the tow rig is less about the vehicle and more about the idiot behind the wheel. 

In reply to Toyman01 : Amen!!! 

Perfectly safe cars are regularly in accidents because the driver messed up.  

Same applies to tow vehicles

I'd be interested in seeing an article like this too. Maybe something like testing them in a couple objective and subjective areas while pulling a trailer:

• Acceleration, either 0-60 or on a dragstrip
• Braking, 60-0 once
• Repeated braking test to see how the brakes fade
• Subjective overall jankiness

It wouldn't need the sort of pushing the vehicle to the limits like in the Explorer test, although something like the Explorer might be a good "medium jankiness" sort of example, with a more modern diesel (or at least a 3/4 ton gas powered) truck, a significantly older full sized truck, maybe a minitruck or some sort of "joker" comparison vehicle like a conversion van, '76 Cadillac, etc.

frenchyd said:

In reply to irish44j :

Too variable.  How much towing experience does the driver have? Anybody ever Driven a class A Semi with double bottom?  ( that’s 2 trailers ) 

after that anything is better.  

I’ve towed a 28 ft enclosed triple axle using a Big Mercury sedan  S10 Blazer ( and S15 Jimmy ) Chevy  2 ton truckcamper/ hauler. K1500 shortbox reg. Cab ( my personal favorite ) & F150 reg, cab shortbox  

i’m ignoring a few one off, like a 26 foot GMC Eleganza pulling a 24 trailer. A couple of Ford and Chevy Vans pulling various trailers.  

My point is a few races a year doesn’t really put a person in a position to make an unbiased judgement. 

Plus let’s be honest, some people need documentation and confirmation before doing anything.  While others tend to be more, “Well let’s try and see”. 

oh, I wasn't suggesting that we just take everyone's independent impressions. I was only suggesting that some GRM members could "provide" various older trucks for the test - but all of the rigs would be tested by the same drivers in the same methods (presumably a few GRM staff who are experienced at towing. 

Obviously truck condition is variable so the older vehicles tested would have to meet some kinds of basic requirements with regard to condition of suspension, tires, steering, brakes, etc. My intent was to assume that we are testing "well-maintained" older trucks/SUVs that are actually owned by enthusiast who presumably keep them in good condition - not just picking up some random old trucks off CL in who-knows-what condition. 

Vigo said:

I love reading all the towing anecdotes on the forum but i think the logistics of a comparison test make it a pretty tall ask. Something maybe a little easier to produce and put into print that I haven't seen much of before is to maybe talk to manufacturers that are doing towing-specific stability control programs on new trucks and get them to lay out the basics of what their systems have to detect and what the vehicle does in reaction to that. Might be some real interesting information out there just waiting for the right journalist to go asking for it. Might also just ask NHTSA if they have data sets specific to towing-related incidents and see what the trend is over time. 

point taken, and anecdotes are just that. Logistically, sure it would be a heavy lift. But let's just say you limit it to a smallish number of old vs.kinda-new vs. new stuff (like 3-4 of each) as representative samples, and arrange to have the owners meet at X spot to perform the test. This is a big community full of people with tow pigs - I'm sure plenty of people would be interested if only to see their tow pig in the magazine :)

I'm sure there are publications that cater to R/V'ers or truck enthusiasts that do this kind of comparison for new vehicles. It's the old vs. mid vs. new thing that would be fun and interesting.

Or, they could do another article about Miatas instead ;)

MadScientistMatt said:

...or some sort of "joker" comparison vehicle like a conversion van,...

My primary tow vehicle for close to a decade was a E150 conversion van. It hauled 6 people and cars or boats to races and boat ramps all over the Southeast. They definitely aren't a "joker" tow vehicle.  

I towed for 15 years with a 1988 E250 Extended Ford window van. It has a C6 and 5.8L V8.

I only towed an open car trailer and the heaviest car I hauled would have grossed out at around 5K (Car & trailer).

Add about 500 lb for cargo.  It handled this load fine but then again I wasn't towing up and down any hills where the van would have been short on power.

As for brakes the trailer had good electric brakes and the vans brakes did their job well.

The PO did tow an enclosed trailer with this van but the car he hauled was a FV so the total weight he pulled wasn't that much more then what I hauled.

When I decided to get an enclosed I went out and bought a 2013 F150 Ecoboost.  The few times I pulled the open trailer with it it was like there was almost no load.

Based on my experience with towing an enclosed trailer (20 ft) with the F150 I just can't see how the PO towed one with the van.

Toyman01 said:

The safety of the tow rig is less about the vehicle and more about the idiot behind the wheel. 

True, but as we all know, everyone who owns a tow rig is a towing God according to them (GRM members included). So since we are all perfect and highly-experienced Tow Gods, the only thing left to compare is our vehicles.

Alternate test: Make a towing class at the Challenge. Not budget-limited, just everyone has to complete a "handling and driving course" and a "back the trailer into this tight spot" competition with whatever tow rig they happened to bring, all while using the same trailer with a set weight/load on it. Or have a common tow rig that everyone uses to keep it even more even :) That way we find out who here is *actually* a pro at towing and who just thinks they are ;)

Toyman01 said:

MadScientistMatt said:

...or some sort of "joker" comparison vehicle like a conversion van,...

My primary tow vehicle for close to a decade was a E150 conversion van. It hauled 6 people and cars or boats to races and boat ramps all over the Southeast. They definitely aren't a "joker" tow vehicle.  

Yeah, some of the most prolific towers I know run E250 vans and such (Moxnix has a V10 in his). I'd probably do one of those myself if I didn't need real off-road capability in order to rescue my broken rally car off a muddy stage :)

Toyman01 said:

MadScientistMatt said:

...or some sort of "joker" comparison vehicle like a conversion van,...

My primary tow vehicle for close to a decade was a E150 conversion van. It hauled 6 people and cars or boats to races and boat ramps all over the Southeast. They definitely aren't a "joker" tow vehicle.  

 

I meant more "not something that most people look for when shopping for a tow vehicle" rather than "towing capability is a bad joke." I know vans can make a great tow vehicle, but I don't see them very often at the events I've been to.

This is probably gonna sound wack but the E53 X5 was rated for 6k and they're a very enticing package for occasional open-deck towing.

irish44j said:

Toyman01 said:

The safety of the tow rig is less about the vehicle and more about the idiot behind the wheel. 

 

True, but as we all know, everyone who owns a tow rig is a towing God according to them (GRM members included). So since we are all perfect and highly-experienced Tow Gods, the only thing left to compare is our vehicles.

Alternate test: Make a towing class at the Challenge. Not budget-limited, just everyone has to complete a "handling and driving course" and a "back the trailer into this tight spot" competition with whatever tow rig they happened to bring, all while using the same trailer with a set weight/load on it. Or have a common tow rig that everyone uses to keep it even more even :) That way we find out who here is *actually* a pro at towing and who just thinks they are ;)

I like the idea of a towing challenge, especially on an autocross course. I have driven a "truck rodeo" years ago, in the pickup class. I wasn't qualified for the dump truck class or snow plow class.

I wish I could find where I put the video, but a few years back I went up to a rallycross in Frostburg MD (towing) and when I got there, apparently it had been cancelled due to flooding (I didn't get the email). But the course was there, all set-up (gravel base) and with some serious flooded areas, with cones set the night before. So what the hell.....of course I ran the course in the tow rig, with the trailer hooked up and the rally car on it and the GoPro on the rally car running. It was pretty epic :) I'll have to dig around and find the vid haha....

at least I got it all a bit dirty :)

Alternate test: Make a towing class at the Challenge. Not budget-limited, just everyone has to complete a "handling and driving course" and a "back the trailer into this tight spot" competition with whatever tow rig they happened to bring, all while using the same trailer with a set weight/load on it. Or have a common tow rig that everyone uses to keep it even more even :) That way we find out who here is *actually* a pro at towing and who just thinks they are ;)

There is a diesel truck challenge that does some of this with a standardized trailer/load. I agree that would make for some entertainment. I think the towing topic here on the forums has at least as much enthusiasm and participation in general as the subclasses do at the challenge, in a way.  I probably would have attempted it in the 3 vehicles I've towed to the Challenge with, which are: 

1. 1993 Dodge Dynasty

2. 2009 Lexus GS450h Hybrid Sedan

3. 1994 Dodge B250 Regency Conversion Van with a 3.9L V6. 

Honestly, i'm pretty sure almost anyone in this thread would have liked to see any one of those vehicles attempt the sort of thing you mentioned. 

I’ll throw in my 2008 GMC Sierra 2500HD with 525,000 miles on it for comparison reasons. 

rob_lewis said:

Cooter said:

Just a quick point to make here. 

 

You don't have to do the speed limit for automobiles. In fact, in most places it is illegal to when you are pulling a trailer. 

Understood, but on a two lane freeway where the speed limit is 75 and most folks are in the 85-90 range (including tractor trailers), staying at anything below 65-70 can be a little dangerous.  :(

-Rob

I transport travel trailers for a living and the tires are rated for 75mph , but I only drive 65 because my truck mileage will start to tank over that. I’m driving commercially and I don’t care how fast anyone one else is going, I’m insured and if some idiot wants to blast me from behind because they have to do 20 over, so be it.