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alleykat
alleykat Reader
12/12/17 3:57 p.m.
SEADave said: 

And finally, if the goal is a faster Miata, I would look really hard at a 2.4 K-series Honda.  I know, not a V8, but (AFAIK) you keep the slick Miata transmission.   The K-series would make a great sports car engine, those things rev to the moon.   

This is very high on my list. Not the cheapest way to go but I think it would be very rewarding to drive. Very abundant aftermarket.

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
12/12/17 4:36 p.m.

In reply to SVreX :

Unfortunately, he mentions that Factory Five seems to have got out of the cheap axle business.

 

I used his tubular front sub frame because it works with off the shelf headers. If I had a tube bender and knowing what I know now, I would make my own.

I used his 8.8 diff mount tutorial to attach the diff to the sub-frame.

The transmission mount is my own design.

Exhaust was patriot tight tuck headers and my own exhaust routing using a box of bends from Jegs.

 

These guys might be a good source for axles at a reasonable price. I know they did some for ccrunner's P1800 where he is using a narrowed Miata rear subframe and an 8.8 along with some Mazda hubs that may have been on the front but then moved back?

 

https://www.dutchmanaxles.com/

 

link to build

http://forums.swedespeed.com/showthread.php?415722-A-Sexy-Volvo-ccrunner-s-1963-1800S-Restomod/page2

 

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
12/12/17 7:08 p.m.

At the risk of getting everyone torqued because of my opinions, I would suggest the 1uzfe. It’s been done. As mentioned though, with any v8 swap, the little odds and ends suck the most. Especially headers. 

dculberson
dculberson PowerDork
12/12/17 8:58 p.m.

In reply to Trackmouse :

I love the 1uzfe but attaching a manual to one is tough in a budget build. Add in engine management costs and header difficulties and it seems tough to do at $5k all in. 

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
12/12/17 9:01 p.m.
Trackmouse said:

At the risk of getting everyone torqued because of my opinions, I would suggest the 1uzfe. It’s been done. As mentioned though, with any v8 swap, the little odds and ends suck the most. Especially headers. 

Why 1zufe?

bmw88rider
bmw88rider SuperDork
12/12/17 9:29 p.m.

In reply to Trackmouse :

You'll have 2K just in the transmission alone since I can't image there are many used pieces out there. You have then lost all of the economics of a 5.0 or 5.3L swap. 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/12/17 9:33 p.m.

In reply to Robbie :

It's a good suggestion.

All aluminum, lightweight, 32V DOHC, high revving, great performance potential, 6500 rpm OEM redline, (can handle up to 9000 rpm), OEM up to 300 hp, 310 lb/ft, clean compact packaging.  400 hp possible when built.  Supercharger or turbo potential.  Toyota reliable.  Stupid cheap.

(Yes, I've considered it!)

BrokenYugo
BrokenYugo MegaDork
12/12/17 9:53 p.m.

With a relatively small displacement 300hp V8 on one end and the mass of a Miata on the other I'd bet a T5 would be fine, a Saginaw 4 speed might even hold up. 

Matthew Kennedy
Matthew Kennedy Reader
12/12/17 10:37 p.m.

In reply to SVreX :

Wreck Racing did it in our challenge car.  We won with that car in 2011.  That's the car that made us more seriously consider serviceability on our more recent cars.

The space between the frame rails is MAYBE 1/4" wider than the valvecovers.  That engine BARELY fits in a Miata.

That said, it's a fantastic engine.  It's just a bit difficult to fit in that small of a car.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/13/17 9:30 a.m.

In reply to Matthew Kennedy :

Yeah, that rules that one out. 

Trackmouse
Trackmouse UltraDork
12/13/17 9:26 p.m.
bmw88rider said:

In reply to Trackmouse :

You'll have 2K just in the transmission alone since I can't image there are many used pieces out there. You have then lost all of the economics of a 5.0 or 5.3L swap. 

I’m 1250$ into my swap. It’s a million mile motor. And it’s been done in a Miata before. Oh, and 6-7psi is fine with the stock Ecu. It’s been done plenty of times.  

bmw88rider
bmw88rider SuperDork
12/13/17 10:08 p.m.

Well aware that it's been done before. I've driven a swapped one 10 years ago. It was a great option then. Now there are just better options. I liked the motor a decade ago. 

 

I can go and get an LFX V6 and get the More HP (320), less weight, still can support boost, and get the whole drive train including the rear and for $2500. You lose a little bit of the sounds but you don't have to deal with adapter plates and such. You break something, autozone or the local pick and pull will have it. 

Greg Voth
Greg Voth Dork
12/14/17 6:42 a.m.

My best advise budget wise is to find someone bailing on a project or parting one out. That's the only way we were able to do both 5.0 challenge Miatas. The problem ends up being constant searching, waiting and ready to jump on a deal. The other issue is you end up with some extra junk that might not have been a great deal. I've bought an entire running high mileage ls1 auto firebird for $300 by going half in with a friend who wanted the rear.  I picked up a Gto T56 and LS6 intake/injectors (worth $3-400) for $1k but the trans may be junk for all I know.  I bought a lower mileage LS1 T56 out of a runner for $2500 and sold $400 of misc stuff off the car.  Also keep in mind the cost of oil pan/ accessories/ intake when going with a truck motor. Often times you end up spending just as much as starting with an LS.

Im picking up a LS swapped rx8 roller that should literally only need a drivetrain for under challenge budget.  I'm debating throwing in my LS1 or 4.8  and 4l60e  to keep it challenge elligible or doing "right" with the LS1 / T56.

As far as LS v 5.0. The LS is going to make more power easier and generally feels more refined. That said Steve's 5.0 challenge Miata is pretty damn quick with just a mild 5.0 (aluminum heads, e303 cam with a carb) so maybe 275-300 crank at the most.  We only made a couple runs down the drags and we're low 13s with traction issues.  It however is loud (glasspack dumps) stiffly sprung and hasn't been sorted yet. 

If you are looking for a cheap toy I'd say 5.0. If you are looking for a nice toy, road trip car etc I'd say bite the bullet and go LS but I think a great deal of time will be spent sorting and fiddling unless you buy a Flyin Miata car or at least a full conversion kit. 

Robbie
Robbie PowerDork
12/14/17 8:36 a.m.

In reply to Greg Voth :

I vote auto+challenge

NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
12/14/17 8:50 a.m.
bmw88rider said:

Well aware that it's been done before. I've driven a swapped one 10 years ago. It was a great option then. Now there are just better options. I liked the motor a decade ago. 

 

I can go and get an LFX V6 and get the More HP (320), less weight, still can support boost, and get the whole drive train including the rear and for $2500. You lose a little bit of the sounds but you don't have to deal with adapter plates and such. You break something, autozone or the local pick and pull will have it. 

The LFX  out of a Caddy ( including the automatic!) into my MGB GT  refuses to leave my brain as the next project; should the Molvo ever get done. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/14/17 9:49 a.m.

Truck vs car LS: I did that math a while back and figured that starting with the car engine was worthwhile for my own project. There's just so much stuff you need to get for the truck engines, and at least around here the parts aren't that cheap.

Buying a used V8 car/project: Assume it's going to need work, regardless of what's in there. You're going to want to go through most of the car to find out what the original owner did/didn't do and get a feel for the quality of the work. There are a lot of DIY guys building these with big ideas and little budgets. Sometimes this means you get a great start on your own build, sometimes it means you have to undo most of what's done. Much of the time, the car is being sold because it's hit some sort of impasse or because something broke. There are exceptions, of course, but they're usually priced accordingly.

An example: headers were recently given as an example of a "little odd and end". To me, they're a fundamental component. Little odds and ends would be things like AC compressor brackets or PS lines. When looking at a used/partial swap, you'll have to figure out which kind of builder you're dealing with.

Greg Voth
Greg Voth Dork
12/14/17 12:04 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

An example: headers were recently given as an example of a "little odd and end". To me, they're a fundamental component. Little odds and ends would be things like AC compressor brackets or PS lines.

Quoted for truth. That's why on the first 5.0 Miata we build the prior owner stopped. Also why we had flipped headers running under the front subframe. Ok for the challenge. Not great on the street with roughly 2 inches of ground clearance. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/14/17 12:08 p.m.

Most "V8 Miata projects" I've seen for sale around here have done the first step - take out everything that's not a V8 - and no more. They look a lot like cars with no drivetrain, but you know, they're V8 Miatas if you squint and hope really hard! laugh

jharry3
jharry3 Reader
12/14/17 12:23 p.m.
FuzzWuzzy
FuzzWuzzy Reader
12/14/17 12:25 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Most "V8 Miata projects" I've seen for sale around here have done the first step - take out everything that's not a V8 - and no more. They look a lot like cars with no drivetrain, but you know, they're V8 Miatas if you squint and hope really hard! laugh

I think that's the thing for most swap projects. They had fun taking everything apart and probably realized it's going to take a whole lot longer to put something not made for it back in. laugh

Blaise
Blaise Reader
12/14/17 12:33 p.m.

"I can't afford to buy one"

Ok, and it's way cheaper to buy one than build one.

Sorry man - if you can't afford it you can't afford it. You'll spent a billion hours hacking something together that ultimately you'll bail on or won't be worth the time/effort/$ you put into it. Sorry.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/14/17 1:06 p.m.

I disagree. I couldn't afford to buy one of the cars we build - the one I drove to work yesterday probably costs 2.5 years of my after-tax income - but I can afford to build one. And I'd build exactly what I'd want instead of having to deal with whatever compromises someone else came up with, so the end result would be better than something I could find used. I've seen very few built cars that are better than what I could put together with the same budget.

And heck, the build is part of the fun.

Patrick
Patrick MegaDork
12/14/17 1:11 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I disagree. I couldn't afford to buy one of the cars we build - the one I drove to work yesterday probably costs 2.5 years of my after-tax income - but I can afford to build one. And I'd build exactly what I'd want instead of having to deal with whatever compromises someone else came up with, so the end result would be better than something I could find used. I've seen very few built cars that are better than what I could put together with the same budget.

And heck, the build is part of the fun.

X10000

i couldn’t afford to buy anything that I have built for myself, and the “built” cars I’ve bought from others have been hack jobs

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/14/17 1:12 p.m.
jharry3 said:

Here is the fast way to a V-8 Miata:

https://houston.craigslist.org/cto/d/monster-miata-fully-built/6421431187.html

 

That actually may be a pretty good deal, but it's out of my budget. 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
12/14/17 1:15 p.m.
Blaise said:

"I can't afford to buy one"

Ok, and it's way cheaper to buy one than build one.

Sorry man - if you can't afford it you can't afford it. You'll spent a billion hours hacking something together that ultimately you'll bail on or won't be worth the time/effort/$ you put into it. Sorry.

That's the kind of response people give who have never been to the Challenge. 

I can't afford a 12 second turbo Miata that can dominate an autocross course, but I had one. 

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