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docwyte
docwyte UltraDork
5/17/19 1:53 p.m.

$110/hour is cheap.  I think the Porsche dealer charges $185/hour, same with all the other Euro dealers.  VW may charge less, like $140/hour.

I do most of the work on my 911 myself and I'm not worried about it affecting the resale value.  Some stuff, like clutch or engine out work like pinning/welding the coolant fittings I'll probably take to an Indy shop and let them handle it.

The0retical
The0retical UberDork
5/17/19 2:02 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

That killed me because the Nissan dealer in California, who did all her maintenance previously, was $120/hr. I could have dealt with it if they were close, but not for 40 odd percent more per hour.

Fortunately for this dealer, their parts guy is freaking awesome. He keeps a stock of IPDM relays in his top desk drawer and keeps a bunch of irritating to get small parts for common issues in stock. So their parts department still gets business from me instead of buying online.

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
5/17/19 2:10 p.m.

My problem is not with the cost of the repairs, it's with the fact that a 60k mile car needs them to start with. That is insane to me.

I bought a $1800 Ford E150 with 200k on it. Drove it 5 years, until it hit 430K. I did not spend $7500 in repairs that entire time. And sold it for $1500 to boot. 

I have spent less in repairs on 2 Chevy Colorados in the last 2 years/200K+ miles. That is including rebuilding a transmission. 

 

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
5/17/19 2:11 p.m.

The bottom line is this:  If the driving experience transcends your everyday appliance in such a way that it changes your life positively, then whatever it costs to keep can be justified.  If nderwater feels that is so then it is so.  It's not up to anyone else to justify the cost of ownership.  Also, how one "owns" a car is completely up to them.  Doing all the work, farming it all out, or something in between is between the owner and the deity of his or her choice.

If the tranny in my wife's minivan E36 M3 the bed tomorrow, I would advise her to take it to our local trusted transmission shop, despite possessing the knowledge and the tools to do the job myself.  My wife relies on that vehicle to run her business.  I cannot finish the job with anywhere near the speed possible from a specialized shop slinging trannies all week.  Plus, I have my own job so progress would be slowed even further.  Our garage can barely contain this minivan, further hindering the work, etc.  Everybody has their own different circumstances.

Would this particular car be so much better than my present plebeian conveyance to justify the cost of ownership for me?  Probably not.  However, many of us have been down this route in our past at least once.  Understanding the impulse to own a more costly but greater grin-inducing ride trumps pooh-pooing the manner of ownership by crowing about one's relative automotive "purity," which doesn't help nderwater with any issue he came here to discuss.  It's all well and good to be proud of your skills but not to anyone else's detriment.

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
5/17/19 2:34 p.m.
pirate said:

I didn’t imply retirement cars simply “dream cars” people always wanted and and when purchased plan to keep for a long period of time. I’m saying that plan changes and when it does maintenance records are important. For high dollar performance cars people often expect documented dealership maintenance for the car to maintain  it’s value.  

 

Thanks, that clarifies things.  You make a point, though I don’t think it works that way for British cars. British cars are about passion not facts and data.  

As to judging value of a British car it comes from the heart not the head.  

Sometimes that heart is on a slow simmer until opportunity and finances agree. That’s why XKE’s are nearing $200,000 while newer, faster, more reliable Jaguars depreciate like a falling elevator.  

 

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/17/19 2:39 p.m.
Jerry From LA said:

The bottom line is this:  If the driving experience transcends your everyday appliance in such a way that it changes your life positively, then whatever it costs to keep can be justified.  If nderwater feels that is so then it is so.  It's not up to anyone else to justify the cost of ownership.  Also, how one "owns" a car is completely up to them.  Doing all the work, farming it all out, or something in between is between the owner and the deity of his or her choice.

If the tranny in my wife's minivan E36 M3 the bed tomorrow, I would advise her to take it to our local trusted transmission shop, despite possessing the knowledge and the tools to do the job myself.  My wife relies on that vehicle to run her business.  I cannot finish the job with anywhere near the speed possible from a specialized shop slinging trannies all week.  Plus, I have my own job so progress would be slowed even further.  Our garage can barely contain this minivan, further hindering the work, etc.  Everybody has their own different circumstances.

Would this particular car be so much better than my present plebeian conveyance to justify the cost of ownership for me?  Probably not.  However, many of us have been down this route in our past at least once.  Understanding the impulse to own a more costly but greater grin-inducing ride trumps pooh-pooing the manner of ownership by crowing about one's relative automotive "purity," which doesn't help nderwater with any issue he came here to discuss.  It's all well and good to be proud of your skills but not to anyone else's detriment.

*golf clap*

codrus
codrus UberDork
5/17/19 5:33 p.m.
Toyman01 said:

My problem is not with the cost of the repairs, it's with the fact that a 60k mile car needs them to start with. That is insane to me.

About the only things on the list that seem particularly unusual to me are the water pump and the fuel injectors.  A bunch of fluids & filters as scheduled maintenance at 60K is not at all surprising, and most 10 year old serpentine belts could do with replacement.  Brake pads are all about how hard you drive the car, so 60K isn't surprising, and most cars these days specify replacing the rotors at the same time as the pads.  Brake fluid is just a good idea at 10 years.

 

Wally
Wally MegaDork
5/17/19 5:36 p.m.
alfadriver said:

One wonders if the same thing would happen if the car was young.  All of that work for something that should be well, well, well under it's emissions cert mileage- and all but a few items are emissions related.  Which is to say, Jag should be making sure that they last 150k miles with no issues, or they get fixed on THEIR bill.

I’ve wondered if lack of use ages some of these parts faster.  I’ve put hundreds of thousands of miles on what people would consider to be terrible cars and never had a lot of the failures that older low mileage cars seem prone too. I have coworkers with long  commutes as well in all sorts of vehicles and they have similar experiences that most of us are plugging along on pretty much just basic maintenance.

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
5/17/19 5:38 p.m.

Some of it also depends on how closely you're looking for worn parts.  There's a big difference in how long a part will run until it's worn and could benefit from replacement vs waiting until it's really shot and obviously in need of replacement.  Particularly for a lot of rubber bits. 

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
5/17/19 8:59 p.m.
Jerry From LA said:

The bottom line is this:  If the driving experience transcends your everyday appliance in such a way that it changes your life positively, then whatever it costs to keep can be justified.  If nderwater feels that is so then it is so.  It's not up to anyone else to justify the cost of ownership.  Also, how one "owns" a car is completely up to them.  Doing all the work, farming it all out, or something in between is between the owner and the deity of his or her choice.

If the tranny in my wife's minivan E36 M3 the bed tomorrow, I would advise her to take it to our local trusted transmission shop, despite possessing the knowledge and the tools to do the job myself.  My wife relies on that vehicle to run her business.  I cannot finish the job with anywhere near the speed possible from a specialized shop slinging trannies all week.  Plus, I have my own job so progress would be slowed even further.  Our garage can barely contain this minivan, further hindering the work, etc.  Everybody has their own different circumstances.

Would this particular car be so much better than my present plebeian conveyance to justify the cost of ownership for me?  Probably not.  However, many of us have been down this route in our past at least once.  Understanding the impulse to own a more costly but greater grin-inducing ride trumps pooh-pooing the manner of ownership by crowing about one's relative automotive "purity," which doesn't help nderwater with any issue he came here to discuss.  It's all well and good to be proud of your skills but not to anyone else's detriment.

Bravo.  I'm really glad you and others are chiming into explain, support nderwater's position and the maintenance required here.  I do get tired of the 'I ran my snoozmobile 5000 for 200K miles or pocket lint and bottle caps' superior attitude at times.  I do have a vested interest here as when I get a job I'm hoping for a Land Rover LR4 as my next daily, which has basically the same engine.

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
5/17/19 10:02 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

I raced for decades on basically thrown away Jaguar junk. Thrown away because it no longer looked pretty and polished. Plus the owners feared expenses  would only get worse. Yet race after race, year after year, decade after decade, that same “junk” hauled that Jaguar down the straight beating lesser cars. 

Dealerships know how to profit from those fears. Independent shops profit from owners seeking a more reasonable cost of ownership. 

My opinion is like an over indulgent pet owner  the owner of a deeply cherished car spends too much initially and then as wear and maintenance is called for costs exceed expectations and fear takes over. Fear prevents logic or reason.  

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS HalfDork
5/18/19 2:52 a.m.

As car enthusiasts our ability to be logical, when it comes to cars, is compromised.  You want what you want.  If you can afford it, great.  If you can’t, beware.

I don’t need a Porsche 911, Boxster, Miata or Mustang, but I have them.....  if I’m honest the Boxster is probably enough, but I like them all.

noddaz
noddaz SuperDork
5/18/19 12:39 p.m.

Ummmm.. Hey!  what a beautiful car you have there!  I bet it is a real joy to drive!

stuart in mn
stuart in mn MegaDork
5/18/19 2:15 p.m.
Jerry From LA said:

The bottom line is this:  If the driving experience transcends your everyday appliance in such a way that it changes your life positively, then whatever it costs to keep can be justified.  If underwater feels that is so then it is so.  It's not up to anyone else to justify the cost of ownership.  Also, how one "owns" a car is completely up to them.  Doing all the work, farming it all out, or something in between is between the owner and the deity of his or her choice.

I drive a couple older BMWs, and for several reasons I'm not able to do as much maintenance on them myself as I used to, so I end up paying maybe a couple grand a year to my local indy BMW shop.  Even so, I'm happy with them and have no plans on replacing them with something else.  The way I figure it is if I bought something new, even if it were some dull econobox it would cost me more on an annual basis for payments, insurance and registration.

For that matter, I spent what many would consider a silly amount of money to have one of them (a 1986 M535i) cosmetically restored a few years ago so I have a lot more invested in it than it's worth, but that's okay - I drive it daily (except during the winter) and it still makes me smile every time I get in and turn the key.

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS HalfDork
5/20/19 2:21 a.m.

In reply to stuart in mn :

Smiling when you drive your car is the reward.  Yes a 996 isn’t the perfect car, but it’s pretty close for me.  

WonkoTheSane
WonkoTheSane Dork
5/20/19 8:57 a.m.
Wally said:
alfadriver said:

One wonders if the same thing would happen if the car was young.  All of that work for something that should be well, well, well under it's emissions cert mileage- and all but a few items are emissions related.  Which is to say, Jag should be making sure that they last 150k miles with no issues, or they get fixed on THEIR bill.

I’ve wondered if lack of use ages some of these parts faster.  I’ve put hundreds of thousands of miles on what people would consider to be terrible cars and never had a lot of the failures that older low mileage cars seem prone too. I have coworkers with long  commutes as well in all sorts of vehicles and they have similar experiences that most of us are plugging along on pretty much just basic maintenance.

Last time I was VIR for a race, I was talking to a local Ferrari mechanic, and he said that is absolutely true.  He said that they see two types of cars at their dealerships;  The ones that only have the mileage between the house and the shop for an annual inspection will need thousands of unplanned repairs, leaking seals, gaskets, hoses, etc.  The other types get somewhere between 8 & 10k per year on them, and they largely need consumables, brake components, fluid changes, etc.   He said that a higher mileage (read 50-60k) 360 or above is fairly cheap, easy & reliable to own as long as you actually drive it, otherwise they can eat you alive.  Obviously, consumables will be a lot higher than a camary, but still.

I'd like to test that theory, I love 360s :)

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
5/20/19 9:36 a.m.

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

That's what the owner of my local high end shop said. He said if you drive the tires off them, the cars are pretty reasonable to keep running. But if they sit all the time they kind of fall apart.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
5/20/19 12:39 p.m.

In reply to WonkoTheSane :

My 360 has 23k miles and is pretty much spotless,  so many would consider it a garage queen. However,  I do try and get it out fairly often to drive on the backroads of our house and bring everything up to temp.  It’s due for a belt service this year, so I plan to take it in and we’ll see what else they find.  I really don’t expect they’ll find much though.

stroker
stroker UltraDork
6/22/19 11:39 a.m.

So what was the final tab on this routine maintenance?

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
6/22/19 12:03 p.m.
sleepyhead the buffalo said:
minivan_racer said:

All I'm getting from this is that I need to open a shop that only does routine service work on Jags.

The thing is, if you open said shop, you have to know the whole back history of Jags to perform maintenance on.  There’s not enough of them in any one market with owners willing to go to an Indy service shop to support “new only regular maintenance”... and the whole “deferred maintenance” thing is real... and only just started turning around for the older Jags.

This is based on conversations I’ve had with the owner of a “Jag Specialist” shop that’s been in operation for ~40years.

This is true not just for Jaguars but any high end European car, Benz, BMW, Porsche, Maserati. Bentley, etc. 

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
6/22/19 12:13 p.m.

In reply to Toyman01 :

Maybe... but then he wouldn't have a Jaaaaaagggg. wink

I tend to agree with the DIY approach. Although I will admit sometimes time and space can be an issue with that approach.  I can't stand going to oil-change places and the constant up-selling they try to do.  Just change the berking oil and don't bother me.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
6/22/19 12:56 p.m.

Is it weird that this doesn't even make me flinch in my desire to own a 5.0 jag XJL? 

frenchyd
frenchyd UberDork
6/22/19 3:01 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

The fact is you are going in with your eyes wide open and more than capable of dealing with most things, Tells me you can have a successful ownership. 

Knowledge is power.  It’s your reward for learning things others won’t be bothered to learn.  

My only suggestion is you find out where similar models are in local junkyards.  Good used can be really affordable when there is little demand.  Dealerships and shops don’t want to lose the potential revenue they get by selling new parts. And few DIY / back yard shop type guys are even willing to try. 

 

 

Shadeux
Shadeux New Reader
6/22/19 3:26 p.m.

I bought a used 2006 E350 wagon with 22k on it. Most competent vehicle I've ever owned. Always smooth, fast, everything designed so well. Flash forward to 60K, needed brakes and the routine service. The estimate rang in at $7800+  (and that does not include...)

There was nothing wrong with the car as far as using it except minor pulsing from the rotors.  My wife and I looked at each other. Went to the Mazda dealer and they gave us 12.5k for it and the $7800 going to the wagon let us buy a new CX-5.  We still wish we had the Merc, but damn, that was out of our league.

nutherjrfan
nutherjrfan UltraDork
6/22/19 8:53 p.m.

In reply to dean1484 :Isn't this more your style? don't know if it's legit.

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