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NOHOME
NOHOME Dork
10/4/13 8:38 a.m.

A much wiser man than myself has pretty much covered this issue:

Why prove to a man he is wrong? Is that going to make him like you? Why not let him save face? He didn't ask for your opinion. He didn't want it. Why argue with him? You can't win an argument, because if you lose, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior, you hurt his pride, insult his intelligence, his judgment, and his self-respect, and he'll resent your triumph. That will make him strike back, but it will never make him want to change his mind. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

Dale Carnegie

Why his books are not required reading in our school system eludes me.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet SuperDork
10/4/13 9:29 a.m.

Yeah, in reference to the TTT's, I've learned over the years to just to let them talk and laugh about the wild stories later. There's virtually no way you can convince them they are wrong.

For instance, we had this customer at the parts store, a regular, that supposedly had a 1987 IROC with a factory installed 350 TPI and a 5-speed. This didn't happen. From the things I've read over the years, the 350's torque was too much for the T5 in test mules, so they were not offered. None rolled off the assembly line for public consumption with the 350/T5. They did however make plenty of 305/T5 cars.

He was adamant that his was a factory built 350/T5 car. There was no way this was possible, and there was no way to convince him otherwise.

Yani
Yani Reader
10/4/13 9:54 a.m.
NOHOME wrote: A much wiser man than myself has pretty much covered this issue: Why prove to a man he is wrong? Is that going to make him like you? Why not let him save face? He didn't ask for your opinion. He didn't want it. Why argue with him? You can't win an argument, because if you lose, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior, you hurt his pride, insult his intelligence, his judgment, and his self-respect, and he'll resent your triumph. That will make him strike back, but it will never make him want to change his mind. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still Dale Carnegie Why his books are not required reading in our school system eludes me.

Why is it ok to let someone go on with their life believing what they think is right? This is how we got to a society full of morons, because everyone is right to believe their own version of reality. If you're wrong and I can logically prove it, I will tell you why you're wrong. You can do it tactfully and with class. If they don't like me for speaking the truth that is their problem. In the end it's a win-win: either I piss them off and they go away and spout their BS elsewhere, or they learn something and actually engage their brain.

"I'm not anti-social; I'm anti-stupid."

mndsm
mndsm UltimaDork
10/4/13 10:06 a.m.
SilverFleet wrote: Yeah, in reference to the TTT's, I've learned over the years to just to let them talk and laugh about the wild stories later. There's virtually no way you can convince them they are wrong. For instance, we had this customer at the parts store, a regular, that supposedly had a 1987 IROC with a factory installed 350 TPI and a 5-speed. This didn't happen. From the things I've read over the years, the 350's torque was too much for the T5 in test mules, so they were not offered. None rolled off the assembly line for public consumption with the 350/T5. They did however make plenty of 305/T5 cars. He was adamant that his was a factory built 350/T5 car. There was no way this was possible, and there was no way to convince him otherwise.

This actually reminds me of something I heard once, that may or may not lend credence to his story. I was speaking with a Ford rep some years ago, and he was talking about phantom cars. Stuff that techincally didn't exist. HOWEVER- if you knew the right dealer, the right build codes, and could get them to submit a build sheet coded out and ready to go on a custom order, random things were known to happen- IE a v8 5-speed Lincoln LX. Been some years since I saw one, but the Ford guy confirmed it happened. I don't know that it's the case here, but wouldn't surprise me. It'd surprise me less if he was talking out of his ass, but it still wouldn't surprise me.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet SuperDork
10/4/13 10:20 a.m.
mndsm wrote:
SilverFleet wrote: Yeah, in reference to the TTT's, I've learned over the years to just to let them talk and laugh about the wild stories later. There's virtually no way you can convince them they are wrong. For instance, we had this customer at the parts store, a regular, that supposedly had a 1987 IROC with a factory installed 350 TPI and a 5-speed. This didn't happen. From the things I've read over the years, the 350's torque was too much for the T5 in test mules, so they were not offered. None rolled off the assembly line for public consumption with the 350/T5. They did however make plenty of 305/T5 cars. He was adamant that his was a factory built 350/T5 car. There was no way this was possible, and there was no way to convince him otherwise.
This actually reminds me of something I heard once, that may or may not lend credence to his story. I was speaking with a Ford rep some years ago, and he was talking about phantom cars. Stuff that techincally didn't exist. HOWEVER- if you knew the right dealer, the right build codes, and could get them to submit a build sheet coded out and ready to go on a custom order, random things were known to happen- IE a v8 5-speed Lincoln LX. Been some years since I saw one, but the Ford guy confirmed it happened. I don't know that it's the case here, but wouldn't surprise me. It'd surprise me less if he was talking out of his ass, but it still wouldn't surprise me.

I know what you mean, there were instances of weirdo combinations being made out there. I've seen a few in my day. Even my Trans Am is strange. It's a WS6 car with the 403, which happened. But usually, 403 WS6 cars came fully loaded. Mine has no T-Tops or power locks/windows, but somehow has the Deluxe interior and A/C. It's unusual, but it was possible.

But trust me, this guy's IROC was not a factory 350/T5 car. It was just another ratty 3rd gen Camaro, complete with that "Daytona" fiberglass cowl hood with all the vents and crap, and the 80's fake Center Line directional wheels.

mtn
mtn UltimaDork
10/4/13 10:34 a.m.
mndsm wrote:
SilverFleet wrote: Yeah, in reference to the TTT's, I've learned over the years to just to let them talk and laugh about the wild stories later. There's virtually no way you can convince them they are wrong. For instance, we had this customer at the parts store, a regular, that supposedly had a 1987 IROC with a factory installed 350 TPI and a 5-speed. This didn't happen. From the things I've read over the years, the 350's torque was too much for the T5 in test mules, so they were not offered. None rolled off the assembly line for public consumption with the 350/T5. They did however make plenty of 305/T5 cars. He was adamant that his was a factory built 350/T5 car. There was no way this was possible, and there was no way to convince him otherwise.
This actually reminds me of something I heard once, that may or may not lend credence to his story. I was speaking with a Ford rep some years ago, and he was talking about phantom cars. Stuff that techincally didn't exist. HOWEVER- if you knew the right dealer, the right build codes, and could get them to submit a build sheet coded out and ready to go on a custom order, random things were known to happen- IE a v8 5-speed Lincoln LX. Been some years since I saw one, but the Ford guy confirmed it happened. I don't know that it's the case here, but wouldn't surprise me. It'd surprise me less if he was talking out of his ass, but it still wouldn't surprise me.

I have dreams of finding this dealer/rep/build codes for various creations. Imagine the possibilities.

Aspen
Aspen New Reader
10/4/13 11:09 a.m.
ValuePack wrote: EDIT: I'd forgotten about another guy who worked here a few years back. Daily drove an IS300, had a CRX track rat for HPDE, 944 project car, owned a fleet of nice Model Ts handed down from his grandfather. Hell, he even bought GRM once in a while, we got along well... until he went to prison for an ongoing long term relationship with a 13yo girl. So there's that. Man, I work with scumbags.

lol. I was liking this guy ownes an IS like me, likes 944s like me...pedophile ...YIKES.

calteg
calteg Reader
10/4/13 11:10 a.m.

I used to chortle and snort derisively if "car guys" weren't into the same tiny niche of motorsport that I was in to. Then I grew up and tried to develop relationships despite differences.

It's gotten me free parts, cheap cars, heavily discounted tint\audio labor, a few real friendships, and in to a VIP box for F1. All for putting up with a little hot air.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic MegaDork
10/4/13 11:13 a.m.
calteg wrote: I used to chortle and snort derisively if "car guys" weren't into the same tiny niche of motorsport that I was in to. Then I grew up and tried to develop relationships despite differences. It's gotten me free parts, cheap cars, heavily discounted tint\audio labor, a few real friendships, and in to a VIP box for F1. All for putting up with a little hot air.

I agree. I may not care about drag racing or off roading or stance but I try to find common ground cause you never know what good stuff may come of it.

Of coarse some people are just impossible to deal with but I have found that it is more due to personality then their interest in cars.

Matt B
Matt B SuperDork
10/4/13 12:14 p.m.
wbjones wrote: I thought I was somewhat of a car guy ... then I started taking my Integra back towards OEM ... the coil-overs came off and I started putting (trying to put) OEM struts/coil-overs back on .... the Koni's lowered the car ~ 2" ... the OEM are that much longer ... I either don't have the skills, or I don't have the tools (I can't really use the lack of tools as an excuse) ... I finally had to call a AAA to send a roll back, and take it the shop ... and have them finish what should have been a fairly simple job ... anyone need a box full of tools ... cheap ?

I wouldn't feel bad about that.

Last fall I decided to do Konis on my 99 GSR. I'm not sure if you ran up against the same thing, but for me the stock springs were so ridiculously long I didn't feel it was safe to use anything but a hydraulic spring compre$$or. I was going to reuse the stock springs at first, but they required so much compression to get them back on the damper that the hand-held compressors started to bind/bend. Scary. I didn't feel like risking serious injury or death so I went ahead and got some H&R OE Sport springs. Waaaaay easier/safer installation.

Back OT: I guess I'm lucky, but it's been a long time since I've run into the annoying crap described here. I guess I knew some guys like that in college, but we were all young-n-dumb anyway. Hopefully they've grown up as well. I'm also a lot more interested in different kinds of cars these days, so I now appreciate newish 400hp Euro sedans as well as a 70's conversion van with a wizard mural.

That said, I'm in an industry that doesn't really attract a lot of car enthusiasts of any flavor (web design). I participate in autocross and a spectate road races, so maybe it's the circles I'm running in are low on the uninformed exaggerating douche factor? I dunno, but it's fun reading your stories.

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
10/4/13 1:43 p.m.
Yani wrote:
NOHOME wrote: A much wiser man than myself has pretty much covered this issue: Why prove to a man he is wrong? Is that going to make him like you? Why not let him save face? He didn't ask for your opinion. He didn't want it. Why argue with him? You can't win an argument, because if you lose, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior, you hurt his pride, insult his intelligence, his judgment, and his self-respect, and he'll resent your triumph. That will make him strike back, but it will never make him want to change his mind. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still Dale Carnegie Why his books are not required reading in our school system eludes me.
Why is it ok to let someone go on with their life believing what they think is right?

depends on the subject. In some cases, I'd say the answer to your question is "because it makes them happy to believe this, and they don't harm anyone by doing so."

Yani wrote: This is how we got to a society full of morons, because everyone is right to believe their own version of reality. If you're wrong and I can logically prove it, I will tell you why you're wrong.

I used to argue a lot like that when I was younger. I may have been right, but I didn't change the opinion of the person who was wrong. (i.e. Dale was correct.) Now I'll decide if their inaccuracy matters to me. Most of the time, the answer is "no," and I'll be better off doing something that's more productive than arguing.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker MegaDork
10/4/13 3:21 p.m.

In reply to JoeyM:

My grandfather used to say "The cemetery is full of guys who thought they were right".

NOHOME
NOHOME Dork
10/4/13 5:20 p.m.
Yani wrote:
NOHOME wrote: A much wiser man than myself has pretty much covered this issue: Why prove to a man he is wrong? Is that going to make him like you? Why not let him save face? He didn't ask for your opinion. He didn't want it. Why argue with him? You can't win an argument, because if you lose, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior, you hurt his pride, insult his intelligence, his judgment, and his self-respect, and he'll resent your triumph. That will make him strike back, but it will never make him want to change his mind. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still Dale Carnegie Why his books are not required reading in our school system eludes me.
Why is it ok to let someone go on with their life believing what they think is right? This is how we got to a society full of morons, because everyone is right to believe their own version of reality.

Turns out you are not the only one to think this way.

chandlerGTi
chandlerGTi Dork
10/5/13 8:11 a.m.

There are some really pretentious posts in here. It's almost painful to read; as if someone isn't a car guy if he hasn't built a car out of tubing in a shed. Like it matters.

There are different levels of car guys; I was at supper the other night with members from here...one was discussing scooter racing, one was discussing drag week, one was discussing auto cross, one was discussing rally cross and I was thinking about the collections of parts at my place that don't do jack E36 M3. Just cause they don't do what you do doesn't mean anything.

nicksta43
nicksta43 SuperDork
10/5/13 9:00 a.m.
SilverFleet wrote: I know what you mean, there were instances of weirdo combinations being made out there. I've seen a few in my day. Even my Trans Am is strange. It's a WS6 car with the 403, which happened. But usually, 403 WS6 cars came fully loaded. Mine has no T-Tops or power locks/windows, but somehow has the Deluxe interior and A/C. It's unusual, but it was possible.

Whoa man, you just blew my mind...I had a '79 T/A optioned the exact same way. WS6, 403, slick top, A/C, manual windows and locks, deluxe interior and it was silver. Crazy.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker MegaDork
10/5/13 9:26 a.m.
NOHOME wrote: Turns out you are not the only one to think this way.

Should Godwin's Law be expanded?

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
10/5/13 9:51 a.m.
chandlerGTi wrote: There are some really pretentious posts in here. It's almost painful to read;

Pretentious? How about self deprecating?

chandlerGTi wrote: as if someone isn't a car guy if he hasn't built a car out of tubing in a shed. Like it matters.

I am building a car out of tubing (and washing machines) in my garage, and still don't consider myself to be a car guy. I'm a third-rate metal shaper who is trying to turn appliances into a larger-than life replica of the diecast model that eastsidemav gave to me at the $2012 challenge.

I think "car guy" is an honorific...and not one I've earned yet. When my first project car moves under its own power, then I might be worthy.

Jaxmadine
Jaxmadine HalfDork
10/5/13 10:53 a.m.

Your worthy. Stop beating urself up.

wbjones
wbjones PowerDork
10/5/13 10:56 a.m.
chandlerGTi wrote: There are some really pretentious posts in here. It's almost painful to read; as if someone isn't a car guy if he hasn't built a car out of tubing in a shed. Like it matters. There are different levels of car guys; I was at supper the other night with members from here...one was discussing scooter racing, one was discussing drag week, one was discussing auto cross, one was discussing rally cross and I was thinking about the collections of parts at my place that don't do jack E36 M3. Just cause they don't do what you do doesn't mean anything.

maybe some of the posts would fall under that heading ...

but the yapping from the know-it-alls, that basically have something totally wrong (like the kid in one of my brakes and suspension class) that was convinced, and nothing anyone could say, that drifting was the fastest way around a race track ...

AFAIC those are the posers ... I no longer try to help them out ... just chuckle and say "yeah, ok ... you keep believing that" and walk away

mndsm
mndsm UltimaDork
10/5/13 11:03 a.m.
SilverFleet wrote:
mndsm wrote:
SilverFleet wrote: Yeah, in reference to the TTT's, I've learned over the years to just to let them talk and laugh about the wild stories later. There's virtually no way you can convince them they are wrong. For instance, we had this customer at the parts store, a regular, that supposedly had a 1987 IROC with a factory installed 350 TPI and a 5-speed. This didn't happen. From the things I've read over the years, the 350's torque was too much for the T5 in test mules, so they were not offered. None rolled off the assembly line for public consumption with the 350/T5. They did however make plenty of 305/T5 cars. He was adamant that his was a factory built 350/T5 car. There was no way this was possible, and there was no way to convince him otherwise.
This actually reminds me of something I heard once, that may or may not lend credence to his story. I was speaking with a Ford rep some years ago, and he was talking about phantom cars. Stuff that techincally didn't exist. HOWEVER- if you knew the right dealer, the right build codes, and could get them to submit a build sheet coded out and ready to go on a custom order, random things were known to happen- IE a v8 5-speed Lincoln LX. Been some years since I saw one, but the Ford guy confirmed it happened. I don't know that it's the case here, but wouldn't surprise me. It'd surprise me less if he was talking out of his ass, but it still wouldn't surprise me.
I know what you mean, there were instances of weirdo combinations being made out there. I've seen a few in my day. Even my Trans Am is strange. It's a WS6 car with the 403, which happened. But usually, 403 WS6 cars came fully loaded. Mine has no T-Tops or power locks/windows, but somehow has the Deluxe interior and A/C. It's unusual, but it was possible. But trust me, this guy's IROC was not a factory 350/T5 car. It was just another ratty 3rd gen Camaro, complete with that "Daytona" fiberglass cowl hood with all the vents and crap, and the 80's fake Center Line directional wheels.

Yeah, I kinda figured he was "that guy". Oh well. It's more fun to think that random cars do exist.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver PowerDork
10/5/13 11:20 a.m.

I work with the president of an auto-x club and know at least 4 others in the office who have autocrossed from time to time.

The guy who sits next to me is in his 80's and used to own a number of Ferrari's... in the 60's and 70's...

Any morons floating around the office are easy to ignore, tis bliss.

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
10/5/13 12:03 p.m.
Jaxmadine wrote: Your worthy. Stop beating urself up.

Thanks, I appreciate the vote of confidence...but I get frustrated by how little I know about engines, transmissions.....basically, about anything that makes cars go or stop.

The reason I keep going back to the challenge year after year is to see the crazy levels of fabrication. Some of the projects are really inspiring.

Driven5
Driven5 Reader
10/5/13 12:39 p.m.
NOHOME wrote: Turns out you are not the only one to think this way.

Hypocritical much?

Jerry
Jerry Dork
10/5/13 1:22 p.m.

I kind of skipped over a few pages, till I saw the posts concerning what makes a car guy a car guy.

I consider myself a "car guy", because I like cars. I know a little, can do a little of my own thing, and can drive in a rallycross with reasonable success. Yet much of my work has been by someone with better tools and knowledge. I'll be the first to admit when I'm in over my head during a conversation, but then I'll listen and learn.

wspohn
wspohn Reader
10/7/13 11:28 a.m.

As several people have mentioned, just being quiet and listening for a minute or two usually tells you if the person is full of it or not. I can tolerate the merely ignorant - we were/are all guilty of that. It is the guys that tell you the way it is and are so wrong but won't consider that possibility.

One of my faves was a guy at a car show that was telling me all about a car owned by a friend of mine. He was claiming various things about the carbs, output and displacement of the engine - things that anyone really conversant with the cars would never have claimed. I just told him that I was afraid he was incorrect or misinformed about that engine and he took it personally and began a tirade that included a "How would you know anyway?"

I was able to get in "Well I am the one that built that engine, so I'm pretty familiar with it" followed by turning away and shaking my head.

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