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JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 4:22 p.m.

So based on this thread http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/three-wheel-car/71719/page1/

And without trying to add any more criticism or dissent, I'll take my challenge to the author and open it up to all here.

We have some great builders, fabricators, engineers and dreamers here. The OPs goal is in his words an affordable 450 pound street legal motorized three wheel 80 miles per gallon Micro Car/Reverse Trike.

So I think quite a few of us could meet that criteria in many different ways. Right now this is just a hypothetical but what if there were a GRM style challenge for builders of vehicles in this vein? Would you be in? What should the rules be?

My initial thoughts: 1. Any 3 wheeled reverse trike 1 or two place, inline or side by side.

  1. Any powertrain chosen by the builder

  2. Must be a fabricated vehicle, you may use components of other cars but this isnt slapping front wheels on a motorcycle or modifying an existing 3 wheeler, this is a fabrication challenge

  3. No budget but the "as sold" cost would be a factor of the final score. "As sold" cost is the value the builder places on the vehicle and components. This IS a claimer challenge, you will agree to sell the vehicle for your as sold posted price to any eligible competitor. As sold cost must, at a minimum, be equal to material costs as documented by the builder

  4. Will be scored on the following criteria:

A. Fuel economy: preferably closed track real world test. Each builder gets 1/2 gallon of their required fuel, must maintain a minimum average speed of 40mph on the track until fuel runs out.

B. Practicality: Is it a toy or is it a practical viable urban commuter, errand runner. Factors such as storage/carrying capacity, driveability, range, etc would be considered.

C. Top speed: perhaps a subset of practicality, should be able to do highway speeds, 65mph minimum, points deductions below a certain threshold.

D. Concourse: Includes factors such as overall visual appeal, build quality, etc.

I'm sure there's more, I'll add as I think of it, you all add as well :)

If a ruleset close to the above were put together and there was an event within one year who would realistically be in?

nocones
nocones SuperDork
10/17/13 4:26 p.m.

Would love to do it. May not be able to actually build but may. My FIL has been pushing me to build exactly this. Mine would be the commuter sort of car.

Was thinking of doing this as the crowdsourced car.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/17/13 4:30 p.m.

I wouldn't be in for a build, but the design phase would be fun I'd be looking hard at the DeltaWing to see what I could learn there.

Why force it to be a reverse trike?

For the fuel economy test, there needs to be a minimum speed. I'll volunteer Brutus, the 7700 lb Dodge with a big push bar as the "motivator".

I'd add in a stability test as well. Even just an offset gate that the car has to negotiate at a certain speed. After all, that's one of the big concerns with 3-wheelers.

Full lights required? Windshield?

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 4:36 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: I wouldn't be in for a build, but the design phase would be fun I'd be looking hard at the DeltaWing to see what I could learn there. Why force it to be a reverse trike? For the fuel economy test, there needs to be a minimum speed. I'll volunteer Brutus, the 7700 lb Dodge with a big push bar as the "motivator". I'd add in a stability test as well. Even just an offset gate that the car has to negotiate at a certain speed. After all, that's one of the big concerns with 3-wheelers. Full lights required? Windshield?

Teams need all types, I'd gladly take your design and engineering prowess on mine if you can tolerate my fabrication to your designs.

No need to force it to be a reverse trike I guess, just trying to somewhat match the criteria set in the other post.

I did note 40mph track average speed during the fuel test, I agree that's necessary to eliminate hypermiling techniques which would be unpractical in daily use. Stability as well, I have in mind using a closed road course for the fuel test so you would have to have some level of handling to navigate it and an offset on one of the straights is not a bad idea at all.

Lights/windshield. I think it should be a "road legal" design. I would not say it has to be registered as the rules vary state to state so its unfair enforcement and penalty on those who live in stricter states but yes there should be an agreed upon set of features which make it deemed "road legal" for the purposes of the rules.

HappyAndy
HappyAndy SuperDork
10/17/13 4:36 p.m.

So if someone wanted to attempt this build as an EV, what would be the equivalent to mpgs?

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 4:44 p.m.
HappyAndy wrote: So if someone wanted to attempt this build as an EV, what would be the equivalent to mpgs?

I meant to add that to the discussion. I would certainly not want to rule out an EV, the idea would to be to keep this as open as possible and see who can build the most practical vehicle within the constraints for the best price.

I assume there have been equivalency calculations done before, so long as there is a reliable way to make the comparison I see no reason not to have both.

mndsm
mndsm UltimaDork
10/17/13 4:49 p.m.

I'd be game to help in whatever limited capacity I can. I truly think it could be built (perhaps not meeting weight guidelines, but certainly others) with a 500/600CC crotch rocket motor, front end off a quad, and the swingarm off said crotch rocket, as starters. Hm. Maybe a single sided arm for weight savings? I'm thinking shrunk down T-rex.

mndsm
mndsm UltimaDork
10/17/13 4:54 p.m.

I took almost 30 seconds to look for this-

http://www.crashedtoys.com/Inventory.aspx?InventoryID=1152425&secid=2&trc=202&ai=&rn=&vt=21&st=MN&fa=734&ad=&ati=&pd=&sc=&mk=&mdl=&yf=&yt=&mz=&z=&pg=1&tpg=&rcppg=&vtg=&fts=&so=5&bn=0#ff9c07c0685e4389a07e675d0d9d3043

http://www.crashedtoys.com/Inventory.aspx?InventoryID=1169086&secid=8&trc=168&vt=15#a54607d5a459498fbe9aa0c1185c87cd little of that.....

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 4:55 p.m.
mndsm wrote: I'd be game to help in whatever limited capacity I can. I truly think it could be built (perhaps not meeting weight guidelines, but certainly others) with a 500/600CC crotch rocket motor, front end off a quad, and the swingarm off said crotch rocket, as starters. Hm. Maybe a single sided arm for weight savings? I'm thinking shrunk down T-rex.

I'm dont think weight size restrictions need to be put on it. The real goal of weight reduction is performance and/or fuel economy so those should be the benchmarks. Weight is an arbitrary, meaningless goal otherwise.

Ok, we can't all be on the same team, c'mon who's gonna build 'em? I think we need at least 10 teams to make it interesting (and for me to go talk to a sponsor who might just make it a reality)

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
10/17/13 4:55 p.m.

My bad for missing the 40 mph speed. That's a good target.

For EV, maybe we require that it reach the average distance achieved by the other cars on a single charge. In other words, a full battery should be equivalent to 1/2 gallon of fuel

mndsm
mndsm UltimaDork
10/17/13 4:58 p.m.
JThw8 wrote:
mndsm wrote: I'd be game to help in whatever limited capacity I can. I truly think it could be built (perhaps not meeting weight guidelines, but certainly others) with a 500/600CC crotch rocket motor, front end off a quad, and the swingarm off said crotch rocket, as starters. Hm. Maybe a single sided arm for weight savings? I'm thinking shrunk down T-rex.
I'm dont think weight size restrictions need to be put on it. The real goal of weight reduction is performance and/or fuel economy so those should be the benchmarks. Weight is an arbitrary, meaningless goal otherwise. Ok, we can't all be on the same team, c'mon who's gonna build 'em? I think we need at least 10 teams to make it interesting (and for me to go talk to a sponsor who might just make it a reality)

Oh you wanna do this FO REALZ? I thought we were excercising our brains.

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 5:07 p.m.
mndsm wrote:
JThw8 wrote:
mndsm wrote: I'd be game to help in whatever limited capacity I can. I truly think it could be built (perhaps not meeting weight guidelines, but certainly others) with a 500/600CC crotch rocket motor, front end off a quad, and the swingarm off said crotch rocket, as starters. Hm. Maybe a single sided arm for weight savings? I'm thinking shrunk down T-rex.
I'm dont think weight size restrictions need to be put on it. The real goal of weight reduction is performance and/or fuel economy so those should be the benchmarks. Weight is an arbitrary, meaningless goal otherwise. Ok, we can't all be on the same team, c'mon who's gonna build 'em? I think we need at least 10 teams to make it interesting (and for me to go talk to a sponsor who might just make it a reality)
Oh you wanna do this FO REALZ? I thought we were excercising our brains.

Its a mental exercise for now, but remember my wife is now running an event planning organization specializing in automotive events. Besides maybe our hosts here would think it would be an interesting idea to add as a sideshow to the $2014 challenge ;)

Oh and must be practical to replicate, no rare 2 cyl diesel motor you had shipped over from the Ukrane or anything like that, the idea is something that could be replicated/sold in kit form.

mndsm
mndsm UltimaDork
10/17/13 5:28 p.m.

In reply to JThw8:

Awesome. I'm figuring there's enough wrecked sportbikes to make my life easy. Sorta like the 818 using a WRX.

bgkast
bgkast HalfDork
10/17/13 5:59 p.m.

This is interesting to me

Javelin
Javelin MegaDork
10/17/13 6:05 p.m.

Would it be crazy to use a paired down Prius system on this ala the FWD part of Bryce's Challenge Fiero?

mndsm
mndsm UltimaDork
10/17/13 6:27 p.m.
Javelin wrote: Would it be crazy to use a paired down Prius system on this ala the FWD part of Bryce's Challenge Fiero?

It hurts my brain- but I think it could work. The only problem is- isn't the entire floor pan of a Prius batteries? As in...where you gonna put em all?

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 7:01 p.m.
mndsm wrote:
Javelin wrote: Would it be crazy to use a paired down Prius system on this ala the FWD part of Bryce's Challenge Fiero?
It hurts my brain- but I think it could work. The only problem is- isn't the entire floor pan of a Prius batteries? As in...where you gonna put em all?

This, I like the concept but if you are taking the front of a prius and attaching a swing arm to it then its not quite in the idea of the game.

My personal goals if I build are able to do minimum 65 on the highway for extended periods, 70+ mpg, not sure if I'll go single or dual seat yet. Definitely able to carry some groceries home. I'm leaning toward large bore scooters as donors but not married to the thought yet. Fiberglass bodywork which will hopefully be a little less derivative than some. Noodling the idea around with some other weirdos I hang around with just in case I decide to go forward.

chaparral
chaparral HalfDork
10/17/13 7:10 p.m.

May I take a secondhand FSAE car and convert it into a three-wheeler?

Heck, you could use 90% of the FSAE rules; they're basically "Car must not have stupid safety hazards".

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 7:14 p.m.
chaparral wrote: May I take a secondhand FSAE car and convert it into a three-wheeler? Heck, you could use 90% of the FSAE rules; they're basically "Car must not have stupid safety hazards".

Did you build said FSAE car? Theoretically this is a challenge to prove your own building and engineering prowess, but at the same time that fits the rules much better than just adding a wheel to a bike. I'd probably allow it (were I in charge or something)

alfadriver
alfadriver PowerDork
10/17/13 7:16 p.m.
mndsm wrote: I'd be game to help in whatever limited capacity I can. I truly think it could be built (perhaps not meeting weight guidelines, but certainly others) with a 500/600CC crotch rocket motor, front end off a quad, and the swingarm off said crotch rocket, as starters. Hm. Maybe a single sided arm for weight savings? I'm thinking shrunk down T-rex.

So many tangents to go on- single front, single rear, FWD, RWD, etc...

But just starting with the power is an interesting discussion. While bet a crotch rocket motor could be capable of good gas mileage, in terms of judging- what is more important, 0-60 or fuel economy. Heck, if I chose to go FWD, theoretically, I coule choose a much bigger, but more efficient motor- say a CRX HF total powertrain.

And on that note- since we have a measurement for some performance- be capable of highway- is there a minimum accleration that would be tolerable?

One interesting car I saw was an ice racer made from a CRX- where the back half of the car was removed, and replaced with a single wheel. I assume that you are looking more for a Locost design vs. a cut down car idea.

I would nominally bring up emissions, but as long as people choose 4 stroke engines, I also know that they are pretty easy to be made clean. So that's the only time I'll bring it up.

chaparral
chaparral HalfDork
10/17/13 7:21 p.m.

I'm going for extreme fuel economy, so I'm going to go for a seriously detuned (lowered ports, lots and lots of compression) 80cc two-stroke with fuel-injection. I can't afford the weight of any four-stroke that isn't a dirtbike engine and those engines aren't close to street durability requirements.

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 7:22 p.m.
alfadriver wrote:
mndsm wrote: I'd be game to help in whatever limited capacity I can. I truly think it could be built (perhaps not meeting weight guidelines, but certainly others) with a 500/600CC crotch rocket motor, front end off a quad, and the swingarm off said crotch rocket, as starters. Hm. Maybe a single sided arm for weight savings? I'm thinking shrunk down T-rex.
So many tangents to go on- single front, single rear, FWD, RWD, etc... But just starting with the power is an interesting discussion. While bet a crotch rocket motor could be capable of good gas mileage, in terms of judging- what is more important, 0-60 or fuel economy. Heck, if I chose to go FWD, theoretically, I coule choose a much bigger, but more efficient motor- say a CRX HF total powertrain. And on that note- since we have a measurement for some performance- be capable of highway- is there a minimum accleration that would be tolerable? One interesting car I saw was an ice racer made from a CRX- where the back half of the car was removed, and replaced with a single wheel. I assume that you are looking more for a Locost design vs. a cut down car idea. I would nominally bring up emissions, but as long as people choose 4 stroke engines, I also know that they are pretty easy to be made clean. So that's the only time I'll bring it up.

Based on the other thread where the aim is not power or sporting intention I would say the goals and judging lean more toward a good all around useable vehicle. There might be an acceleration test if the challenge was held some place with a drag strip for instance, but it would not weigh as high as fuel economy and general streetability. I would be more inclined to go the CRX route as you mentioned than a bike motor. Actually I was even thinking 3cyl Geo drivetrain, you wont need much to move this thing.

You want to build the ultimate urban commuter appliance. Fun but useable. But these are just my ideas, nothing is set in stone.

Yes more locost design. I know the CRX, they were Team Triangle on the first BABE rally. Cool car, not what this is about though.

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 7:25 p.m.
chaparral wrote: I'm going for extreme fuel economy, so I'm going to go for a seriously detuned (lowered ports, lots and lots of compression) 80cc two-stroke with fuel-injection. I can't afford the weight of any four-stroke that isn't a dirtbike engine and those engines aren't close to street durability requirements.

Good example also. That's why I'd love to leave the "ruleset" as open as possible, let imaginations run wild and see how many ways people can find to skin the cat. The contrast and eventual comparison of the efforts would be very interesting.

C'mon GRM you know you want this as the $2014 sideshow. Build it and they will come, or more to the point host it and we will build them and come! I'm sworn off projects but I'll start building this weekend if there's an event to build for ;)

mndsm
mndsm UltimaDork
10/17/13 7:42 p.m.

I don't have the skills to build it- but I actually have a pretty good idea of what I would like to see.

JThw8
JThw8 PowerDork
10/17/13 7:43 p.m.
mndsm wrote: I don't have the skills to build it- but I actually have a pretty good idea of what I would like to see.

Skills are gained by doing, you can do it :)

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