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Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/2/21 8:00 p.m.
RaabTheSaab said:

This is a thought I just had: what if the IP on well designed stuff (Apple, Google) is so extensive and specific that proprietary systems need to be designed so differently to avoid litigation that it just ends up working badly? Is this real? Does anyone have more info? 

I figure that Toyota evap systems are mind boggingly convoluted so that they can avoid paying someone royalties, and all of the easy ways are taken.

GM has two valves and a sensor.  Stone simple.  And if they would connect the vent solenoid to the air cleaner, they'd be stone reliable, too.

 

I got scared when I looked under my '02 Volvo and saw a Chrysler ESIM or NVLD or whatever 4LA they used that year.  Chrysler device with the cursed Chrysler style connector stinkin' up my Swedish car built on a Japanese chassis in Denmark with German parts... But it never gave me problems.  Even Mercedes uses Chrysler evap parts, and they manage to just work...

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/2/21 8:09 p.m.

I have nothing against a TPMS, I have a problem with the IT degree it sometimes requires to get them to work.  OEMs make it intentionally difficult so that more people have to go to the service department.  Good for profits, E36 M3ty for John Q. Public.  Seriously, the technology requires a wireless connection between four sensors and a computer.  That's easy.  Simple input/output.  "If psi > 34 and < 39 = warning light off"  Period.  Making you take a trip to the dealer to figure out how to reset it is just a scam.

It's also getting to the point where OEM service departments are lagging behind.  The technology rolls out so fast that even [insert brand] specialists miss the nuances.

Don't get me wrong, tech is great, but it's being used to empty our wallets faster than it's being used for our convenience and/or safety.  

Or, I should say... the latest greatest tech is great for someone's lawn, but get it off my lawn.

I'm a carb tuner and I approve this message.

Pepe
Pepe New Reader
10/2/21 8:16 p.m.

A few years ago, I would use Enterprise Car Share all the time, since I did not own a car. The fleet consisted mostly of Ford Fusions and Toyota Priuses (?) The Fusion was a nice, no nonsense car. The Prius was also alright, until they bought some new ones. The new ones would beep every time I changed lane. Living in the city, that happened all the time. I hated driving that car. I assume that you can turn that junk off, but for an hour rental, I was not going to spend twenty minutes figuring out.

gunner (Forum Supporter)
gunner (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
10/2/21 8:20 p.m.

So much about modern cars I don't like. I really am strongly considering just repairing my 2001 Corolla as issues crop up, including a slightly breathed on engine at 300,000 miles just because for as long as I live. We shall see. It still runs like a champ right now.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
10/2/21 8:22 p.m.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

I have nothing against a TPMS, I have a problem with the IT degree it sometimes requires to get them to work.  OEMs make it intentionally difficult so that more people have to go to the service department.  Good for profits, E36 M3ty for John Q. Public.  Seriously, the technology requires a wireless connection between four sensors and a computer.  That's easy.  Simple input/output.  "If psi > 34 and < 39 = warning light off"  Period.  Making you take a trip to the dealer to figure out how to reset it is just a scam.

It's also getting to the point where OEM service departments are lagging behind.  The technology rolls out so fast that even [insert brand] specialists miss the nuances.

Don't get me wrong, tech is great, but it's being used to empty our wallets faster than it's being used for our convenience and/or safety.  

Or, I should say... the latest greatest tech is great for someone's lawn, but get it off my lawn.

I'm a carb tuner and I approve this message.

Last I checked, OEM' don't make money on service- they pay for it if it's under warrantee.  We do make *some* tiny amount of money making parts.  But if the process to reprogram a system is long and arduous, the OEM pays the dealer to do that.  

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/2/21 8:24 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Fords will learn a new sensor all by themselves, sometimes within two or three revolutions.

Some Hyundais do too.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/2/21 8:29 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

You're missing the sales aspect.  "No problem, mister Smith, we'll take care of that TPMS.  By the way, we noticed your brakes are worn, your oil is due for a change, the tires need to be rotated, the blinker fluid is low, and we're having a sale on tires."

There are two functions of a service department:  1) convert as many warranty repairs to customer-pay as possible (that's what the "service excellence" awards are on the wall) and 2) scour the car for anything that might need attention that isn't under warranty.  Our metric at the first dealer service where I worked was 80%.  That is to say, we set a target of 80% of our warranty ROs to end up making money - either by convincing the customer that it wasn't covered, or by upselling an additional repair not covered.

Edit:  We called it "unassing," meaning... get their ass out of the car and get the keys.  Courtesy vehicles and loaner cars?  That's not a concierge service, it's a way to remove excuses for not leaving your car.  Free 51-point inspection?  That is not a perk, it's permission to find every single thing wrong with your car so we can sell it to you.  Free towing?  Great.  That means you're not here to drive away if you don't like my price.  Free estimates?  Same thing.  Ever wonder why service departments always tell you how long it might take to "get your car in" even though you have an appointment?  It's because they have no clue how long every job before you will take, and they're trying to get you to just drop the car and go away.  You've seen the service departments where you drive into a nice, covered garage-foyer?  That isn't because they care about you not getting rained on, it's psychology.  Parking your car in the lot and going inside doesn't psychologically do anything.  The owner is in control.  Driving it INTO a garage psychologically anchors you to the commitment of leaving the car.

To a service department, warranty repairs are a golden opportunity.  The whole point is to get cars through the garage door, and warranties do that very well.

This is why I'm now a Carpenter. 

Ranger50
Ranger50 MegaDork
10/2/21 8:30 p.m.

In reply to Datsun310Guy :

It's a wagon. The "mufflers" are back at the rear axle plus tailpipes... it's not bad.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
10/2/21 8:49 p.m.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Yea, so we sell a few million in parts, big deal.  All of the extra service is all dealer profit, not OEM.  We just get *some* money from parts.  It's really, really minor in comparison to the cars.  Which means in your hypothetical example, maybe we make a few pennies on the brake pads.  Nothing on oil, nothing on the actual work.  The "loaner" is owned by the dealer, BTW, not us.  And they get to sell it as a used car after.

It's more profitable to increase the cost of an F150 by $10 than to rely on parts sales.  And easier, as we don't have to worry about dealer repair.

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) PowerDork
10/3/21 9:45 a.m.

I guess my point is all this technology is supposed to make our lives better. I'm sure I could quickly adapt to the flashing light on the mirrors, buzzers and bells, and the whole shebang. Yes, your car is optimized for a certain pressure in the tires, but please, once I have complied to the computer nanny, let me off the hook. A lot of this reminds me of A Brave New World. We will not be forced to coalesce to mind control. We will be lulled into a stupor. We will beg for these "conveniences" as we slowly relinquish control.

My '09 Fit had TPMS. I found it somewhat annoying, but by golly, my tires were never low because of the trouble light guilt. When it got totaled, I got an '04 Matrix. No TPMS, no baby sensor to ensure I don't lock a non-existent baby in the hot car. My tires are probably a few psi low right now. It is fine.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
10/3/21 10:07 a.m.

The intended method for programming TPMS sensors is with the factory scan tool which is fast and easy and all the dealer techs have access to.  Snap-on, etc will clone that feature into the tools they sell to aftermarket shops, so those are covered too.  The vast majority of customers have less than zero interest in programming those sensors themselves so DIY methods are just not a priority when designing the car.

 

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/3/21 10:11 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

When I was at Saturn, we used Nissan spark plugs, presumably to save money smiley

Years later, I was clued into Worldpac by a friend who worked in the service department of a Mazda dealership.  He told me that they were cheaper and faster than getting parts through their own network.  That was the best tool ever, you could get OE or OE supplier components inexpensively and quickly.  (Think Rock Auto without all the closeout 3rd party junk)

 

Two more anecdotes to reinforce that dealer service doesn't always add up to manufacturer profits...

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
10/3/21 10:47 a.m.
gunner (Forum Supporter) said:

So much about modern cars I don't like. I really am strongly considering just repairing my 2001 Corolla as issues crop up, including a slightly breathed on engine at 300,000 miles just because for as long as I live. We shall see. It still runs like a champ right now.

My approach is similar to yours. I run a car until it is only worthy of the junkyard. But because I value money and my time. I buy new. Maintain it properly, doing oil changes with high quality oil. Tires are replaced when worn with good quality tires, Wash the car regularly to minimize rust, etc. Then  keep it until it rots.  20 years and 371,000 miles for my last one. It went to the scrap yard using 1/2 quart between oil changes fuel mileage was as original. Cost in repairs less than $1000 for 20 years. That included labor at the dealer. Depreciation? 100%  well except for the $200 I got from the junk yard.  
    Why not buy used to start with and avoid some of the depreciation?  If you've ever sold cars as a profession you'd understand. Buying it private party, really isn't better. 
    Owning it aside from normal maintenance cost me a little over $1000 year.  Never once did it strand me. And at any moment until I called the junkyard I was ready to travel anyplace in the country with it.  
    

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
10/3/21 11:19 a.m.
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) said:

I guess my point is all this technology is supposed to make our lives better. I'm sure I could quickly adapt to the flashing light on the mirrors, buzzers and bells, and the whole shebang. Yes, your car is optimized for a certain pressure in the tires, but please, once I have complied to the computer nanny, let me off the hook. A lot of this reminds me of A Brave New World. We will not be forced to coalesce to mind control. We will be lulled into a stupor. We will beg for these "conveniences" as we slowly relinquish control.

My '09 Fit had TPMS. I found it somewhat annoying, but by golly, my tires were never low because of the trouble light guilt. When it got totaled, I got an '04 Matrix. No TPMS, no baby sensor to ensure I don't lock a non-existent baby in the hot car. My tires are probably a few psi low right now. It is fine.

I'm sure the same things were said with the first distributors that had automatic spark advance on them were introduced.

 

earlybroncoguy1
earlybroncoguy1 Reader
10/3/21 11:30 a.m.

I rented a Nissan...something a few weeks ago while I was covering west Texas/New Mexico for work. I think it was a Sentra, but I never cared enough to find out for sure.

It was OK, as a transportation appliance. It got me where I needed to go, without too much trouble. It had the pushbutton start, had to remember there's no where to stick the key in every time I got in. So, keys got tossed into the center console cubby, had to snake my left foot around the funky parking brake pedal/lever taking up too much space in the footwell to push the brake pedal to start the engine. Plug my iPhone in to keep it charged and the car constantly wanted to "connect" to it.

Short trips were not too bad, but the longer trips (Amarillo to Albuquerque, Hereford to Lubbock, ugh) brought the car's woeful lack of horsepower to glaring light - and don't get me started on the "intelligent" cruise control - which was anything but. I'd be tooling along around 75 mph, and slowly gain on a car up ahead. Once the car was within a couple hundred feet, the cruise control would start slowing the car down, to maintain distance. OK, makes sense so far - but that's when things got frustrating. I'd change lanes to pass, the cruise control would notice there was nothing in the way anymore, and hit the gas, causing the poor little hamster under the hood to make all kinds of sad noises but not much in the way of acceleration. In heavier traffic, the cruise control was...schizophrenic, to put it mildly. It was either WOT or hard on the brakes, nothing in between. I ended up shutting it off most of the time.

Apple Carplay worked ok, once I got it figured out - could put up the navigation screen and Pandora on the display while on the long trips...for awhile. After an hour or so, it would just...stop working. I'd have to unplug the phone, plug it back in, and restart everything, again.

          

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
10/3/21 11:41 a.m.

All the beeping and flashing is irritating.  I'm not a big fan of things being done for me that I didn't ask for.  I see absolutely no need for more than five speeds if I'm not in a Freightliner.  

Plus, most new cars look like a cross between Transformers and Edsels.

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) UltimaDork
10/3/21 12:10 p.m.

On my truck the "L" in "PRNDL" doesn't stand for "Low", it stands for "Manual Mode". Now, if a customer doesn't take the time to peruse the 380 page owner's manual he would never know that. There's also a 75 page manual on the infotainment system. It's all needlessly complex. Very little of the current  control systems are intuitive. Do I like some features that weren't available a few years ago? Yes, I do. Things like the heated seats and steering wheel are nice at my age and they are controlled by a button that is well designated and intuitive. I find a lot of this stuff is hit or miss though. I don't even look at my phone most days so I certainly don't care if it can be synchronized to the dashboard computer. I'm just getting old and cranky, I guess.......smiley

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/3/21 12:30 p.m.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

At my previous job, the owner bought an Avalon with a cooked 2GR.  Of course the block deck was warped .004, so I got to do a complete engine teardown and rebuild.

Like to say it was mid 00s?

Anyway, he wanted to use it as a loaner and decided not to, because the controls for important things like HVAC were not immediately intuitive for someone who is just going to drive it for a day or two.

 

It isn't a "modern" car problem.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
10/3/21 2:06 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Fords will learn a new sensor all by themselves, sometimes within two or three revolutions.

Some Hyundais do too.

On the flipside,  my FR-S only recognizes one set.  That's it. Zero learning. Makes wheel swapping a bit of a pain. The workaround is programmable sensors with the original serial numbers. There are solutions out there.

gunner (Forum Supporter)
gunner (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
10/3/21 3:03 p.m.
frenchyd said:
gunner (Forum Supporter) said:

So much about modern cars I don't like. I really am strongly considering just repairing my 2001 Corolla as issues crop up, including a slightly breathed on engine at 300,000 miles just because for as long as I live. We shall see. It still runs like a champ right now.

My approach is similar to yours. I run a car until it is only worthy of the junkyard. But because I value money and my time. I buy new. Maintain it properly, doing oil changes with high quality oil. Tires are replaced when worn with good quality tires, Wash the car regularly to minimize rust, etc. Then  keep it until it rots.  20 years and 371,000 miles for my last one. It went to the scrap yard using 1/2 quart between oil changes fuel mileage was as original. Cost in repairs less than $1000 for 20 years. That included labor at the dealer. Depreciation? 100%  well except for the $200 I got from the junk yard.  
    Why not buy used to start with and avoid some of the depreciation?  If you've ever sold cars as a profession you'd understand. Buying it private party, really isn't better. 
    Owning it aside from normal maintenance cost me a little over $1000 year.  Never once did it strand me. And at any moment until I called the junkyard I was ready to travel anyplace in the country with it.  
    

What you described is hilariously close to reality with this car. 2001 Corolla that I bought new when I was selling cars for toyota at a dealership. I've spent less than $1000 in repairs over the last 20 years on it, more in maintenance but thats a given. When I need it, the car just starts up every time and does what I need it to do. No plans to get rid of it and I love that its just simple. Power windows and door locks and A/C and thats all I need.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
10/3/21 5:33 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

One thing I do like is the side camera some (not all) Hondas have.

Turn on your right turn signal, the backup camera screen comes up, but with a blind spot camera mounted to the right mirror.

I'd love for a way to have remote cameras on a trailer.  That'd be sweet.

matthewmcl
matthewmcl HalfDork
10/3/21 5:46 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

As long as the trailer isn't too long, you can run a wireless backup on your trailer.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
10/3/21 6:36 p.m.

So did you check the pressure of the spare tire?  

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
10/3/21 6:41 p.m.
matthewmcl said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

As long as the trailer isn't too long, you can run a wireless backup on your trailer.

That is a painful proposition, actually.  I may try again with a specific company, but I've not had good luck finding a good wireless camera to work.   The idea, though, is a very solid one.  I see that many modern trailers have back up cameras installed on them.

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) PowerDork
10/4/21 5:45 a.m.
dean1484 said:

So did you check the pressure of the spare tire?  

Ha!

Nope.

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