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dculberson
dculberson UberDork
6/24/14 12:36 p.m.

Durrrrr

z31maniac
z31maniac UltimaDork
6/24/14 12:43 p.m.
Curmudgeon wrote:
aussiesmg wrote:
ryanty22 wrote:
Junkyard_Dog wrote: I don't care how much faster it is. I don't care if it sounds like I double clutch and blip the throttle every time. I REALLY don't care if it's more efficient and gets better mileage. I care that I know the computer is making me look good. No amount of computer goodness will replace the feeling of the perfect downshift as I accelerate out of a corner. So what if I can only do it half the time. Or even 1 out of 10 times. I did it. The fact that it is hard to do and doesn't always work is what makes it special. That is what makes it so satisfying to do right. You can have my stick shift when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.
This
And I reinforce this again
And yet again. Any goofball can drive a PDK and do good lap times, it takes real talent to drive a dogleg and drive it well.

Yep, managing the traction circle, late braking, trail braking, picking the correct line.......those all have no effect on your lap time.

It's purely down to the gearbox.

facepalm.png

Brett_Murphy
Brett_Murphy UberDork
6/24/14 9:27 p.m.

I love my manual transmissions. I have two "Save The Stick" T-shirts, my daily is a manual, my fun car is a manual and my project car is a manual. I get it.

That said, I drive the manual because I want the transmission to do what I tell it to when I tell it to do so. I recently drove a DSG GTI and I was really happy with it- it did what I told it to, shifted faster than I could and most of all, my wife could drive it if she wanted to.

It is the best of both worlds, the perfect compromise and still loads of fun. I recently learned that BMW put some of these in 2010 and later 335 models. That's now on the short list of cars.

wbjones
wbjones UltimaDork
6/25/14 5:58 a.m.
z31maniac wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:
aussiesmg wrote:
ryanty22 wrote:
Junkyard_Dog wrote: I don't care how much faster it is. I don't care if it sounds like I double clutch and blip the throttle every time. I REALLY don't care if it's more efficient and gets better mileage. I care that I know the computer is making me look good. No amount of computer goodness will replace the feeling of the perfect downshift as I accelerate out of a corner. So what if I can only do it half the time. Or even 1 out of 10 times. I did it. The fact that it is hard to do and doesn't always work is what makes it special. That is what makes it so satisfying to do right. You can have my stick shift when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.
This
And I reinforce this again
And yet again. Any goofball can drive a PDK and do good lap times, it takes real talent to drive a dogleg and drive it well.
Yep, managing the traction circle, late braking, trail braking, picking the correct line.......those all have no effect on your lap time. It's purely down to the gearbox. *facepalm.png*

all of those things go together … don't think anyone denies that … but the fun and sense of accomplishment when any of those is done correctly is hard to explain .. especially to someone that thinks it's ok for the computer to do it for him

just like I'd rather NOT have ABS on my track car, I'd also rather do the heel-n-toe down shifts … as opposed to letting the computer do it for me

and no I don't need you to remind me of how much the computer does for me as it is … the manual spark advance of a model T isn't what we're talking about here

if I lived somewhere where the traffic was horrible, then yeah I'd consider a PDK .. but the extra expense (to purchase and to maintain) are a deal breaker for me …living where I do

Woody
Woody MegaDork
6/25/14 8:55 a.m.

I used to be ^that guy, but then I drove a PDK and realized that left feet are stupid.

z31maniac
z31maniac UltimaDork
6/25/14 9:06 a.m.
wbjones wrote: all of those things go together … don't think anyone denies that … but the fun and sense of accomplishment when any of those is done correctly is hard to explain .. especially to someone that thinks it's ok for the computer to do it for him just like I'd rather NOT have ABS on my track car, I'd also rather do the heel-n-toe down shifts … as opposed to letting the computer do it for me and no I don't need you to remind me of how much the computer does for me as it is … the manual spark advance of a model T isn't what we're talking about here if I lived somewhere where the traffic was horrible, then yeah I'd consider a PDK .. but the extra expense (to purchase and to maintain) are a deal breaker for me …living where I do

You manual elitist's really need to quit acting like people who like the PDK/DSG/DCT transmissions are hopeless street dwelling hacks who never visit the racetrack.

Seriously.

 photo IMG_0555.jpg

wbjones
wbjones UltimaDork
6/25/14 9:49 a.m.

you probably need to re-read my post … I didn't say anything good, bad, or indifferent about someone that likes paddle shifters ..

I said that I like to do my own shifting … for any and all that like the paddle shifters …have at it, I really don't give a E36 M3 what you do … seriously … I DON'T CARE … does that help you here ? oh, and you didn't bother to notice the emoticons through out my posts ?

if you read my post(s) you'd also see that I said I would probably go with a paddle shifter if I lived somewhere like Atlanta

stop being so sensitive …. (see there's another one of those pesky emoticons)

Duke
Duke UltimaDork
6/25/14 10:05 a.m.
z31maniac wrote: You manual elitist's really need to quit acting like people who like the PDK/DSG/DCT transmissions are hopeless street dwelling hacks who never visit the racetrack.

[checks posts] Nope, not there. [/checks posts]

I've already stipulated that dual-clutch transmissions are certain to be faster around the autocross course or racetrack. I've also pointed out several times that I don't care. I don't find them as rewarding or fun to drive, no matter how much faster they are. I'm not saying anything at all about people who choose to love them and drive them. Good on you.

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 HalfDork
6/25/14 10:16 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac: We're not necessarily hating on people that like them, we don't like that companies aren't making manual trans for some of the sports cars and sports coupes when they should.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
6/25/14 10:37 a.m.

MkIn reply to Mr_Clutch42:

Why should they? The market has spoken. People prefer PDK and similar. If Porsche were selling 10 'real' manuals for every PDK they'd be pushing them. Companies don't build cars based on what they think a tiny subset of future used buyers may want in 10 years time.

Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher
6/25/14 10:38 a.m.

I'm with the troglodytes. And I have driven PDK, DSG, and whatever Mitsubishi's acronym for it's automated box is. They are all great.

If I lived in a congested area and had to deal with traffic-- an automated manual would be a great choice. This is also true if I had a wife that needed to drive my car, and she refused to learn how to drive manual. (although I can't see myself with a wife unwilling to learn new things ) If my left leg was amputated this would also be a great option to have. Or if I was a professional racer and cutting that last 10th of a second off my lap time mattered to me, sure an automated manual would be great.

Otherwise, I'd prefer a traditional manual--- with clutch pedal and antique gear-shifter sticking out of the floor. Of course I also prefer vinyl to compressed music, and spending time outdoors as opposed to "gaming".

Because of this I have no interest in owning an Alfa 4C, or any new Ferrari. I'm sure they are magnificent cars.....for someone else. I'd rather buy a used Elise and get as much visceral input as possible.

This doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else, or inferior to anyone else. It's just what I like. I've driven the future.... and while it's great to have that option, I'd rather live in the past.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
6/25/14 11:01 a.m.
z31maniac wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:
aussiesmg wrote:
ryanty22 wrote:
Junkyard_Dog wrote: I don't care how much faster it is. I don't care if it sounds like I double clutch and blip the throttle every time. I REALLY don't care if it's more efficient and gets better mileage. I care that I know the computer is making me look good. No amount of computer goodness will replace the feeling of the perfect downshift as I accelerate out of a corner. So what if I can only do it half the time. Or even 1 out of 10 times. I did it. The fact that it is hard to do and doesn't always work is what makes it special. That is what makes it so satisfying to do right. You can have my stick shift when you pry it out of my cold dead hands.
This
And I reinforce this again
And yet again. Any goofball can drive a PDK and do good lap times, it takes real talent to drive a dogleg and drive it well.
Yep, managing the traction circle, late braking, trail braking, picking the correct line.......those all have no effect on your lap time. It's purely down to the gearbox. *facepalm.png*

No shi+, Sherlock. I stoopid but I do know this much: if you turn the same or better lap time in a manual car as someone else in a PDK, who has more skill?

Mr_Clutch42
Mr_Clutch42 HalfDork
6/25/14 11:07 a.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson: Just because they don't sell well doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth making. Porsche isn't going to make that many 918s. They can prepare to only sell now numbers of manuals. They can also say, "who cares about having them available for the 2nd or 3rd owner, but when tens of thousands of people buy Porsche parts for their old cars, it adds up to the bottom line.

z31maniac
z31maniac UltimaDork
6/25/14 11:25 a.m.
Curmudgeon wrote: No shi+, Sherlock. I stoopid but I do know this much: if you turn the same or better lap time in a manual car as someone else in a PDK, who has more skill?

That wasn't your original statement.

You originally said "And yet again. Any goofball can drive a PDK and do good lap times, it takes real talent to drive a dogleg and drive it well."

I should have been more clear, I wanted to point out that being able to successfully heel-toe a downshift is one of the EASIEST skills on track to master.

I just always find all this machismo around manual gearboxes funny.

It would be the equivalent of me coming in and saying, "Oh isn't that cute. Driving a car on track is so easy, hell you've got safety equipment and 4 tires......anybody can turn a fast lap in a car. Now let's get you out on two wheels and see how skilled you are?"

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson PowerDork
6/25/14 11:50 a.m.
Mr_Clutch42 wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: Just because they don't sell well doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth making. Porsche isn't going to make that many 918s. They can prepare to only sell now numbers of manuals. They can also say, "who cares about having them available for the 2nd or 3rd owner, but when tens of thousands of people buy Porsche parts for their old cars, it adds up to the bottom line.

Non logical argument. They make the 918 because there is a market. If they made a 918 with both a regular manual and PDK then the probably wouldn't sell a single manual version. Sames goes for the 911. PDK sales are going up up up and regular manual sales are going down down down so it's being phased out. PEople with the scratch to buy a new Porsche as a group want the PDK and not the regular manual. The only people I know in the last couple of years who have bought new Porsche's in all three cases have gone for PDK over manual. The market for over $100K cars with a regular manual is all but dead.

Bobzilla
Bobzilla PowerDork
6/25/14 12:04 p.m.

I don't get the whole "Wife can't drive it" mentality. How is that possible? Does she not love you?

alfadriver
alfadriver PowerDork
6/25/14 12:13 p.m.
Joe Gearin wrote: I'm with the troglodytes. And I have driven PDK, DSG, and whatever Mitsubishi's acronym for it's automated box is. They are all great. If I lived in a congested area and had to deal with traffic-- an automated manual would be a great choice. This is also true if I had a wife that needed to drive my car, and she refused to learn how to drive manual. (although I can't see myself with a wife unwilling to learn new things ) If my left leg was amputated this would also be a great option to have. Or if I was a professional racer and cutting that last 10th of a second off my lap time mattered to me, sure an automated manual would be great. Otherwise, I'd prefer a traditional manual--- with clutch pedal and antique gear-shifter sticking out of the floor. Of course I also prefer vinyl to compressed music, and spending time outdoors as opposed to "gaming". Because of this I have no interest in owning an Alfa 4C, or any new Ferrari. I'm sure they are magnificent cars.....for someone else. I'd rather buy a used Elise and get as much visceral input as possible. This doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else, or inferior to anyone else. It's just what I like. I've driven the future.... and while it's great to have that option, I'd rather live in the past.

Just picked this "manual is more rewarding" post by random...

So if that is actually the real reason, I do hope you choose the correct hardware to be rewarding. You should be driving at least an Alfa Spider or GTV vs. a Miata. Having driven both, I can very assure you that the Alfa is much more difficult, less forgiving, and more rewarding than a Miata is to drive. By a wide margin. Its 100% why I've always raced an Alfa and never a Miata, even though I've owned both for a very long time. I fully realize that the Miata is a superior car in every way. But if you condemn people for using the auto as a crutch, consider yourself condemned for not driving a difficult enough car.

So if you are really honestly serious about that position, the manual alone isn't as rewarding as the entire car is.

but that's somewhat been pointed out before.

I'm fine with people driving autos.

wbjones
wbjones UltimaDork
6/25/14 12:14 p.m.
z31maniac wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote: No shi+, Sherlock. I stoopid but I do know this much: if you turn the same or better lap time in a manual car as someone else in a PDK, who has more skill?
That wasn't your original statement. You originally said "And yet again. Any goofball can drive a PDK and do good lap times, it takes real talent to drive a dogleg and drive it well." I should have been more clear, I wanted to point out that being able to successfully heel-toe a downshift is one of the EASIEST skills on track to master. I just always find all this machismo around manual gearboxes funny. It would be the equivalent of me coming in and saying, "Oh isn't that cute. Driving a car on track is so easy, hell you've got safety equipment and 4 tires......anybody can turn a fast lap in a car. Now let's get you out on two wheels and see how skilled you are?"

you missed the tongue in cheek

only for some people … I know several very accomplished racers that can't … no matter how much they practice… get it right

and in this particular case … that's a real laugh …since he raced on 2 wheels for a long long time

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon MegaDork
6/25/14 12:17 p.m.
z31maniac wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote: No shi+, Sherlock. I stoopid but I do know this much: if you turn the same or better lap time in a manual car as someone else in a PDK, who has more skill?
That wasn't your original statement. You originally said "And yet again. Any goofball can drive a PDK and do good lap times, it takes real talent to drive a dogleg and drive it well." I should have been more clear, I wanted to point out that being able to successfully heel-toe a downshift is one of the EASIEST skills on track to master. I just always find all this machismo around manual gearboxes funny. It would be the equivalent of me coming in and saying, "Oh isn't that cute. Driving a car on track is so easy, hell you've got safety equipment and 4 tires......anybody can turn a fast lap in a car. Now let's get you out on two wheels and see how skilled you are?"

Po-ta-to, poh-ta-to. And having done both two and four wheels, two is definitely more difficult and more dangerous. There's a reason that motorcycle racers retire earlier than car racers and also why many times they move to and dominate car racing.

alfadriver
alfadriver PowerDork
6/25/14 12:24 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

to reply to myself- I was lucky to take an Alfa 156 with a paddle shifter set up- all I could honestly think about was taking the car around Waterford Hills and how much fun that would have been.

Sadly, the car had an M plate, and I could not beat on it. That was someone else's job.

nderwater
nderwater PowerDork
6/25/14 12:26 p.m.

I'm a big fan of the DCT as experienced in the recent BMW M3. I've been told that the PDK is even better. I can totally see myself being content with one in my daily commuting.

That said, I'm also a big fan of clutch-kick power slides and acting like a total hoon from time to time. Give me both a PDK and a clutch pedal to have fun with and I'm sold.

yupididit
yupididit New Reader
6/25/14 12:30 p.m.

Enough d**k swinging sword fights. Who is going to let me get behind the wheel of their PDK Porsche?

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave MegaDork
6/25/14 12:42 p.m.
Brett_Murphy wrote: I drive the manual because I want the transmission to do what I tell it to when I tell it to do so. I recently drove a DSG GTI and I was really happy with it- it did what I told it to, shifted faster than I could and most of all, my wife could drive it if she wanted to.

Ding ding ding ding.

I prefer manuals over automatics because they allow me to better translate to the ground that which is in my brain. If a dual clutch trans improves that, all the better.

calteg
calteg HalfDork
6/25/14 1:07 p.m.

The reason I drive a 20 yr old Miata is the same reason I prefer stick shifts. It's slow, but it's what I like.

Rusted_Busted_Spit
Rusted_Busted_Spit UltraDork
6/25/14 1:07 p.m.

Drive whatever you like, it will not color my opinion of you what so ever. On a track where time is the end all be all then a PDK type is the way to go, but for me, in my DD, I want a 3 pedal car.

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